junk2drive Posted December 23, 2004 Share Posted December 23, 2004 Anyone familiar with Carlisle Cumbria UK? I am looking to do a post Sealion scenario. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rupert_2 Posted December 23, 2004 Share Posted December 23, 2004 Here ?? http://www.visitcumbria.com/car/ 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
junk2drive Posted December 23, 2004 Author Share Posted December 23, 2004 Yes I know how to Google lol Seems to be a tax on photos on websites in the UK. All I get are tiny pics. I found a site with aerial photos. I need to know if it snows in the winter, things like that. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rupert_2 Posted December 23, 2004 Share Posted December 23, 2004 Yes, does snow it winter, though more likey windy with sleet than snow. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
junk2drive Posted December 23, 2004 Author Share Posted December 23, 2004 This is the site with aerial photos of Carlisle I am guessing that CMAK Normandy type maps would be usable for this area. As you travel north, (along the Roman Road) does it become hilly or mountainous? Or east along the route of Hadrian's Wall? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rupert_2 Posted December 23, 2004 Share Posted December 23, 2004 Normandy is a bit too flat for Cumbria, it's much more hilly (plus some parts could be considered mountainous.) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
llama Posted December 23, 2004 Share Posted December 23, 2004 I wouldn't say I know Carlisle, but I did get drunk and laid there as a young soldier (long story, but The Mitre will always have a pleasant slot in my memory) and have been back a few times since. If you want to look at some photos of the terrain nearby, look on the 'net for the "Lake District". There are loads of them out there and they will give you a good idea of the terrain any invader would have to fight through to get to Carlisle. Cleary I don't know the premise of your proposed scenario but I find it difficult to image the circumstances in which the invaders would be fighting that far north, and even fewer in which, given the nature of the terrain, the defenders would not have a massive advantage. Cheers 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
llama Posted December 23, 2004 Share Posted December 23, 2004 Another thought occurs. If you want to think about the type of English troops that might be defending Carlisle in 1940, read George McDonald FRASER's "Quartered Safe Out Here". That tells of the Border Regiment fighting in Burma in 1945, but just imagine those characters fighting on and for their home turf. Tinkerty-tonk 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
junk2drive Posted December 23, 2004 Author Share Posted December 23, 2004 Premise: Sealion was a success. Dunkirk survivors and home guard have retreated fighting as they go. Logistically the Germans could not take the whole island in weeks as with France. Fall winter weather, and resistance fighting has held the line of advance and occupation to a line from Carlisle to Newcastle upon Tyne. As the Barbarians harassed the Romans, so the remnants of the CW army, Canadians and Free French, harass the Germans. Why did the Germans stop there (Carlisle) you ask? Ocean and marshes to the west, rough terrain to the east. The river Eden. Supply lines. I would like to use Ed's new winter buildings and some WW grau armour in light snow vs the USA M3 in early 1941. More? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
junk2drive Posted December 24, 2004 Author Share Posted December 24, 2004 Andreas and Desert Fox have their Sealion ending in August when the British Government surrenders. Details at Desert Fox' website. I don't think the British would give up, but retreat to the north. I suggested to Andreas to continue the saga to Hadrian's Wall. Then have a Bravehart style charge down the hill battle or whatever. That way you can mix up 1941-43 units in all the seasons and terrain. I have given up on the snow idea, no winter mods for the units I want to use. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hans Posted December 24, 2004 Share Posted December 24, 2004 You could add another what if; invasion of Northern Ireland by the Irish as the Irish take the weakness of the UK (and incouraged by a WWII version of the Zimmerman telegraph from Germany) to regain their lost lands. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
junk2drive Posted December 24, 2004 Author Share Posted December 24, 2004 Yes I thought of that too with Italians for the Irish, using German kit. PZIIIN later with Italian tankers. Use them for green recon ahead of the Germans too. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan Hope Park Posted December 25, 2004 Share Posted December 25, 2004 What else do you need to know about Carlisle? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
British Tommy Posted December 26, 2004 Share Posted December 26, 2004 Another part of Britain which would of been difficult for the Germans to take is Wales. True, the coastal area's could of been taken but as they moved inland into the hills and mountains their casualties would of been high due to the terrain which is easy to defend. The port of Liverpool would of easily suppied the defenders ( ships coming from the US ). Another point, it would of been difficult for the German airforce to patrol. Think of them flying down the valleys, encountering A\A fire coming from the the mountains on both sides of the valleys. Not good tank terrain either. They would have been forced to use infantry on foot in many area's. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
junk2drive Posted December 28, 2004 Author Share Posted December 28, 2004 Thanks for the posts guys. I've been out of town playing Santa to my grandson. Basically I have all this neat Sealion mod stuff and I am trying to use it. I would like to inspire good scenario designers to come up with some post invasion scenarios in areas other than the south coast of England. Being what if, You can use whatever you want. Within reason, to be believable. BT you do good work, how about something? CSO_Talorgan I was trying to find areas near Carlisle that contain bits of Hadrian's wall and could be a WWII vintage battle area. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
junk2drive Posted December 28, 2004 Author Share Posted December 28, 2004 This source WWII Timeline gives year by year, month by month, by theatres, war at sea, everything that was going on in WWII. I use it to find what "wasn't" happening and to find time periods that do not conflict with other historical events. My best guess of Sealion timeframe would be sometime after Dunkirk, and before the war with the Soviets. Assuming a German success, the battles travel across the isle, slowed or halted by shipping, weather, terrain, airpower, ground resistance levels. The British Navy and Air Force could be relocated and still viable, ground units may have been left behind. (Captured units are in CMAK.) Factories in the north could still be producing goods. Scenarios don't have to be in late 40 or early 41 defense, summer 41 through summer 42 could be counter attacks to free the occupied territory. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holien Posted December 28, 2004 Share Posted December 28, 2004 Hi, You might know about these but here they are if you don't. http://www.multimap.com/ http://www.streetmap.co.uk/ http://www.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/oswebsite/getamap/ Cheers P.s. A feature of Google is to do a search for images. Loads of images for the wall. http://images.google.co.uk/images?q=hadrian's%20wall&hl=en&lr=&cr=countryUK%7CcountryGB&sa=N&tab=wi This one quite good... Removed as link too long... Sorry. H [ December 31, 2004, 08:13 AM: Message edited by: Holien ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan Hope Park Posted December 29, 2004 Share Posted December 29, 2004 I was trying to find areas near Carlisle that contain bits of Hadrian's wall and could be a WWII vintage battle area.There used to be a wargame club in Carlisle, but I don't know if there still is. There must be someone in a town of that size who plays. Whether they post here or not is another matter though. What I've seen of the wall would equate in height to CMAK's stone wall. It's several times thicker though. Your Sealion follow-through situation is in many ways an invitation for British Isles CM players to draw a map of their own home town and then defend it! The square street plan constriction of the maps makes this difficult though. As for what-if accounts of Sealion, the best I read was Kenneth Macksey's. I think it was called "Invasion" or "Invasion 1940". It's starting point was Admiral Raeder being ordered to plan for Sealion a month earlier than happened in history. As a result the invasion could begin shortly after Dunkirk and was essentially complete before the bad weather of autumn would have made it impossible. You know that by the spring of 1941 the British were much better organised? After the post-Dunkirk window, I don't think any Sealion type operation would have stood a chance without nuclear weapons or possibly nerve gas. Consider the build up in North Africa and the Far East, not to mention the material aid to the Soviets, in the years after 1940. Finally, there was an interesting what-if on television recently. Guderian was allowed to go all the way to Dunkirk. The BEF were surrounded. They tried to break out towards Calais, but were massacred in the process. Churchill was ousted from office and peace negotiated. I guess you could take this situation and give it a military ending i.e. Churchill stays in office, the fight goes on, Sealion makes it ashore ... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
junk2drive Posted December 29, 2004 Author Share Posted December 29, 2004 Holien, thanks for the links. I never thought about the google image button. CSO_Talorgan "Your Sealion follow-through situation is in many ways an invitation for British Isles CM players to draw a map of their own home town and then defend it! The square street plan constriction of the maps makes this difficult though." That is what I had in mind. Andreas' project is based on Macksey's timeline. Had the Germans succeeded in taking London by August, then 1941 would have been different. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan Hope Park Posted December 30, 2004 Share Posted December 30, 2004 Had the Germans succeeded in taking London by August, then 1941 would have been different.Do you not think it'd've been all over by Christmas? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
junk2drive Posted December 30, 2004 Author Share Posted December 30, 2004 You get my vote for the best use of apostrophes in a contraction. I even showed the wifey. To your question, it depends on one's perception of the Allies in a post invasion condition. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
British Tommy Posted December 31, 2004 Share Posted December 31, 2004 J2D, I could build a scenario based around Cardiff docks. This would of been an important area to take for the Axis force. Drop me an email so we can discuss this in greater depth. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
junk2drive Posted December 31, 2004 Author Share Posted December 31, 2004 Email sent. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GSX Posted January 4, 2005 Share Posted January 4, 2005 Well in theory the carlisle scenario would be fun. In real life, not a chance, if the germans had launched Sea lion and suceeded (slim chance there) the fall of London would have meant the fall of the Uk. There would not have been much if any Scots, Welsh or other units left further north to seriously contest a battle. As for the ludicrous notion of Southern ireland attacking in the North, well it goes without saying that reclaiming lost lands is just foolish. The population of norther ireland would have fought to the last as the vast majority would have considered themselves british then as now. In truth, the Royal navy would have had to intervene with all its strength (and that was considerable)and the germans could only counter with aircraft. Also RAF Bomber command would have used every plane available to attack the beaches and the UK Government was quite prepared to use gas against any invader. To sum up, if sealion was successful the UK would have surrendered if London was taken, but Sealion would not in any way have been a success, the germans in 1940 were not the allies of 1944 when it came to amphibious assualt. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
junk2drive Posted January 5, 2005 Author Share Posted January 5, 2005 I do enjoy reading peoples opinions on the subject. My reason for doing this is the other people who started a project. To squeeze another drop of gameplay from the basic game. Some people will think this is stupid and never could have happened. I go about this assuming that things worked out on the side of the Germans for whatever reason. Once past that, the what ifs can expand in any direction. I like to think the fall of London would not have been the end. Maybe because I'm a Yank and we don't care about Capitals. We moved ours around. Make up a plausible storyline, a map and some forces. Have fun. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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