What Ifs? of SC

[JerseyJohn]

Genghis

I'm sure nobody meant any disrespect and I suspect he was getting a bit liberal in his old age, only slaughtering the warring population and not their house pets. What amazes me is how, in one of his last campaigns, he sent an army against the Poles and a smaller one against the Hungarian Knights to serve as a diversion. The Mongols won both battles decisively, near massacres, and turned back only because the Great Khan had died. I'm not sure if this was during the rule of Ghengis or his successor, probably the latter. In Europe the terror was such that all of Christendom prayed for salvation against what they were calling The Devil's Horsemen , many honestly believing they had been sent by Satan to destroy humanity.

Interesting point about the Mongols and Moslems. After crossing the desert and conquering Persia their momentum seems to have fallen off. Presumably they were growing content with what they'd already conquered.

SeaWolf_48

Good old Alex definitely altered a few well laid plans.

I mention Cyrus as the founder of the Persian Empire, known to history as Cyrus the Great . He came up because when Alexander and Genghis Khan were mentioned Hueristic detoured the detour we were at the time meandering through and it couter-meandered into the Persians.

Darius I sent the troops that fought at Marathon, and his successor, Xerxes I actually invaded Grece crossing over from Turkey. As Genghis says, the figures cited by Heroditus are undoubtedly gross exaggerations and even 250,000 including camp followers and laborers would have been a large force to feed, which esplains their hugging the coast and moving in parellel with a large fleet, the warship portion of which was defeated at Salamis.

If my memory is correct the Persian Emperor Alexander defeated was Darius III . Alexander went on to punish his assassins and marry his daughter, wisely combining the Greek/Persian and Egyptian cultures in his shortlived administration.

I think Arta-Xerxes ruled while the Greeks were fighting among themselves in the period between the Persian invasion and the ascent of Macadon. He's a famous warrior Emperor who expanded Persia in Asia, but I'm pretty sure he isn't the Emperor who fought against Alexander. I'll need to hit the books on this one.

Just returned from the books and it was Darius III. I imagine these long departed historical figures and their footnotes sitting around and getting a kick out of still being discussed. Some big barbecue in the sky, Genghis Khan chomping on a piece of chicken, nudging Arta-Xerxes and saying "Your name just came up Artie, when's the last time that happened!" with Napoleon sulking in a corner because with all these meanderings and detours we never bothered to mention him.

The original topic of this thing was -- How Far Would Alexander Have Gotten with Stukas? right? :confused:

[ January 17, 2003, 03:21 AM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[Liam]

Okay! Okay! Okay! We'll hop on the previous subject of new things to add to Strategic Command. I would love destroyers, that had a very good range and possible raiding abilities like subs. Though are weak in comparison with cruisers and battleships, heavier armed larger vessels.

I would also like to point out we have fighters and bombers... We have nothing inbetween... Some have said, well you can include the German Bomber Command in with it's Airfleets though I don't think so. A neccessary alteration to give Germany a tech-0 German bomber to open the game with and the British a tech-1 and perhaps longer range capabilities would be fair more accurate. Now, on top of that sub spotting ability... Of course we all want subs to be more a strategic weapon and less a tactical one. Which is accurate, the Germans didn't use subs to put down the British Royal Navy, they'd of been massacred. Maybe in small #s They need to dive and hide... I think that both America and Britian should get a bomber bonus... that would level the game off also, and when America enters she should have the rough equivelant of a B-17...Which is a tech-2 bomber IMHO and far more distance! She also has two lousy battleships? A few destroyers or cruisers would be nice!

The bombard capabilities as John pointed out on all warships is far too good! They can make and break you when in reality they only softened up the coastal defenses before a landing. Serious damage? I would have to -the factor though all ships block supply!!! It's called blockading a port and you wouldn't recieve MPPs from a port that is blockaded, that goes back ages in real life and in this game it should be implemented. It would give the Allies a much need pounch. So you couldn't do some silly thing like try to invade Canada and expect anything much from it. You would have to take fleets more serious as a Stategic weapon...Though obsolete in the larger Pacific they still did major damage in the N.Sea. The Germans used many destroyers on top of their subs to complement them.

I would love to see Artillery, you've got rockets? Though you don't have artillery and of course you may consider the two the same but they're not, or included in Armies. I would prefer to have them as a seperate entity considering the Hex size, which is reasonable to line up artillery behind and adjoined to Armies or corps... Nothing killed more men in WW2 anyways so! Gotta include that...80%???

Anti-aircraft is sorta in this game, but not quite. perhaps artillery can have a duel role, like fighters do... If you cross the path of the guns or an adjacent hex you come under fire. Mobile AA guns, like the FlakPanzer in WW2 were deadly!

I want greater punishment on Neutral invasions! The Germans did get all they had from plunder, cut em back to much further you'll cut them off completely. You need to enhance the capabilities of the Allies to wage war, not downgrade the Axis. Allied Subs???

That was brought up! They did their job too!

[Liam]

JJ:

Yeah, Cortez had help. Zapotecs, and I don't know who else. The Aztecs had the Jaguar Warrior. Deadly, with their double sided stone axe. I'm sure they were pretty fanatical. I know the name Swashbuckler comes from the Spanish soldier with the sword that delivered the death blow to the belly of the enemy. In particular in Mexico, that's if the musketman missed his target. When Cortez got off the ships with his men, he burnt them! He wanted to be rich!

I do feel for the Aztecs though they were primitive. I know during the American-Mexican War they were used against us as cannon fodder more or less. Their culture was decimated, and parts of it integrated. Though there was much hate between the remaining natives and the new mestizos. Even to this day, theirs rebellious Indians in the Yucutan. Brazil has them, Chile doesn't tolerate them. Many other Central and South American nations have had troubles, their culture should be preserved for anthropologists at least.

The Spanish got filfthy rich!!! Off the Aztecs and Incas! Those people are so poor now! Though it's the way of the sword... The English put the Spaniards in their place once in and for all and now Spain is a modest country at best..Not considered in the top ten as far as I know.

[JerseyJohn]

Liam!

You did it backwards -- if you'd have put the history comments and the SC comments in the second ending on topic would have been easier. Now, if I reply to the History part I'm putting things off topic again!

No big thing, in any case we're much more on topic now than we have been for at least the past fifty postings!

The real bane of Spanish existence were the Dutch. On more than one occasion they swiped the entire annual Treasure Fleet! The House of Orange conducted the treasure raiding as a national industry, using small fleets, where the British and French commissioned individual buchaneers, who occasionally banded together against the Spanish, but were as likely to take ships of their own nation as those of rivals.

England didn't really put Spain in it's place, it took hundreds of years before Spain really declined and it had more to do with not becoming industrialized than with losing wars. When Phillip II said losing half the Armada was a trifle, "They've singed my beard," is how he put it, and he wasn't just talking. In late sixteenth century Spain was much more powerful than England and France combined.

It wasn't till over a century later, after Britain, France and Holland had combined against her a few times that she started slipping from her position.

I think power built on direct overseas colonial expansion is the most transitory. Considering that, the British, French, Spanish, Portuguese and Dutch didn't do too badly by lasting from three to five centuries. Especially in the case of Holland and Portugal; for a long time both nations held positions of wealth and influence totally out of proportion to their European boundaries. In the end all maritime powers lose their colonies; the British did it cleverly, for the most part the others waited till their possessions tore themselves free and failed to retain even a Commonwealth with trade and mutual defense advantages.

The prime exception being Portugal and Brazil, which went through a long period of semi-independance and maintained permanent trade relations with the mother country, but she failed to repeat this process in her lucrative African colonies, which simply took their independance.

As most of Europe became more industrialized and Spain remained where it had been, she ended up in the emabarassing position of having to buy her cannons from -- guess who? -- the British! At her peak the Spanish Crown was usually between three and five years in debt to Dutch and Italian bankers. This despite it's American silver mines and virtual monopoly of Far Eastern trade, which she shared with neighbor Portuagal, who she ruled for a century starting with the same Phillip II who sent the Armada.

Extremely interesting point about the surviving descendants of the South and Central American Indians. I'll pass and no doubt someone who knows more about it than I do will pick it up further on. The Mexican War is also a great topic (more for it's peripheral issues than for the war itself) and another one I have to pass on. Hopefully we'll be able to sneak both in, along with 1898 Spanish American War, somewhere else; maybe wedged between rocket and battleship entries.

Okay, so that's progress, we've suddenly jumped from Phillip of Macedon to Phillip of Spain. We're to be congratulated.

Agree on all your SC related points. Bill Macon's expressed similar ideas regarding rockets which puts you in good company.

Glad you mentioned shore bombardment, I guess the only way to deal with that is to reduce the Battleship's effect on land targets. Which would be rough because as Immer mentioned in his Forum, The Sands of Iwo SC, it's already very difficult to displace ground units defending a coastline. There have been numerous discussions about destroyers as convoy escorts and the consensus is most players don't want convoys directly represented on the map. Destroyers are also considered to be attached to capital ship units.

[ January 17, 2003, 07:40 AM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[SeaWolf_48]

Opps, my memory isn't what it use too be. Yes your right it was Darius III killed by his own men to appease Alexander, I think Roxanne was his daughter which became one of Alex's wives.

The Ptolomy's ruled egypt until Cleopaptras death, and the Selucides ruled Syria/Palistine past Herod the lessor death. Both started by Alexanders generals.

How about those Tigers (PZKW VIB)!

[Hueristic]

Originally posted by JerseyJohn:

The original topic of this thing was -- How Far Would Alexander Have Gotten with Stukas? right? :confused:

LMAO

[Desert Dave]

As originally posted by JerseyJohn:

There have been numerous discussions about destroyers as convoy escorts and the consensus is most players don't want convoys directly represented on the map.

Actually, I WOULD like to see some convoys on the map, provided the ocean is enlarged and some other method is used, such as ASW (... in the form of destroyers) and right-click commands for "run silent" and "convoy duty," etc.

My idea is this: keep the current schematic of having convoy "lanes" that are invisible, so that these might be attacked by raiders (... to include surface ships), BUT

**ADD the following: every once in while, perhaps 3-4 months, there would be a random flagship convoy ship that would represent, oh, 50-150 MPPs. These would originate in the USA or Canada (... or, in South America... example - oil from Venezuala) and have a specific trajectory.

One might go to Murmansk, and one might go through the Med to Alexandria or Malta (... as Torch) and one might go from NY to Liverpool (... this, so that the parents of the Beatles might be sufficiently nourished, and thus and presto! Rock & Roll will eventually have it's mop-top day, etc... well, we don't actually need pop-up boxes to explain all that, we can simply assume... )

Anyway, the Axis player would have to be alert and anticipating these random "special convoys." This would require that they at least pay attention to historical realities... or, they could disregard, and flood the underground factories with new Panther orders, as they pleased.

Now, this would also provide for Lend Lease and USA's assistance BEFORE their entry, satisfying those who would ask for better implementation of USA's industrial might.

Again: let's have on-board convoys! This would greatly expand the Battle of the Atlantic and allow even more suspense, since the cat & mouse U-boat wars would (... and should, IMO) become the CRITICAL factor that they actually were. :cool:

[JerseyJohn]

Mr H -- Glad you enjoyed that line. I reached the end of what I was writing and couldn't remember what we started out with!

Immer

Well laid out, much better than ever before.

As you know from the old Forum, Hubert -- The North Atlantic , I'd also prefer the sort of thing you've outlined, along with a more accurate Atlantic map depicting Iceland and Greenland and some of the other base-worthy islands (which I'm glad to see at least a few other people have also mentioned in other forums). My conclusion was meant to indicate where the general trend seems to be going as opposed to where we think the game should be.

It would be great if SC 2 unfolds with something like what you describe. Then the U-boat war would really make sense and involve a great deal of strategy. As you say, surface raiders should also be a factor.

Repeating my view from other forums, I think the Atlantic and lack of weather, especially mud and winter (in Russia they're both critical and in the Balkans/Italy mud dictated tactics) are the two areas of this game that most require revision.

During the first few years of the war, for example, the Atlantic was an easy place for U-boats to hide in and it was even easy to keep them supplied at sea. But in the present system the first thing most Allied players do is corner and sink them (there's no reason not to) and it's impossible for them either escape, hide, or win the battle!

[ January 17, 2003, 04:18 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[Liam]

RE: North Atlantic

There was a the Battle of the North Atlantic, probably as costly as the Battle of Britian. The subs in this game are an annoyance to compliment surface ships...as much as destroyers would compliment Battlehips and cruisers. The way that other world Powers besides Germany and US used subs to attack vital shipping. Which Island nations like Japan and Great Britian rely on for they have massive overseas commerce. If it involved say 30% of the Islands income, in Sea Lion it would be vital to cover your commerce which it was.

As far as convoys, random ones... It could be a neat aspect...imagine a convoy carrying 50 MPPs in it's hull! That would move man and resources continually to the far out reaches of the Atlantic where they spent much of their time subhunting!

[kenfedoroff]

Originally posted by Immer Etwas:

ADD the following: every once in while, perhaps 3-4 months, there would be a random flagship convoy ship that would represent, oh, 50-150 MPPs.

What do you mean every 3-4 months? More like every single turn. C'mon Man, lets crush these Nazi's.

Sincerely,

"Pulverised by Panzers"

[JerseyJohn]

Liam

Carl von Mannerheim had a similar suggestion a couple of months back about U-boats starving Britain, which would be an accurate historical representation. Hopefully he'll restate it when he gets a chance as it's a fine idea and as it wasn't mine I'd rather wait for the originator to expound on it.

Agreed about the role of subs in this game. They're more like fleet members, which is the way Japan used her submarines rather than as commerce raiders.

In 1938 Germany made the decision to produce a lot of U-Boats instead of finishing her two aircraft carriers, the Graf Zeppelin and Peter Strasser, both launched in 1936 but never completed. One of the other Forums went into Game alternatives and I've toyed with a scenario where the three U-boats are removed and replaced by two capital ships, either the carriers or a carrier and a battleship (Bismark and Tirpitz had also been launched and were in the early stages of completion). This would represent Germany having gone the other way, completing her capital ships before going into submarine production.

I think it's a viable historical alternative and the playtesting has been good. The first thing human players do is corner those two U-boats and send them to the bottom. Certainly two capital ships floating in the Baltic are more interesting than two sub-units permanently residing on the floor of the Atlantic.

[JerseyJohn]

kenfedoroff

At the height of the war you'd probably be right, by 1944 the Atlantic was certainly full of convoys.

Your message is nicely put, makes me nostalgic for the Why We Fight film series.

[Desert Dave]

As orginally posted by kenfederoff:

What do you mean every 3-4 months? More like every single turn. C'mon Man, lets crush these Nazi's.

Well, the Albuquerque SteamRoller Factory, Inc, could only produce so many of those old war horses each month... no assembly line, and all the various bits & pieces and cylinders & rollers had to be carried here and there to be finely finished by hand.

[Liam]

1) England’s fleet had to have one million tons of supplies by ship each month.

German U-Boats plagued the fleet. During the Battle of the Atlantic, Merchant Marines brought fifty-five million tons of their yearly supplies to Britain. The Graf Spee hunted allied ships and was successful until it was attacked off the coast of Uruguay by four small British ships. Captain Hans Leinsdorf scuttled the ship and killed himself.

Admiral Karl Dernitz asked for extra U-Boats. Hitler refused, so Dernitz used what he had. Forty-one British supply ships were sunk by German mines and U-Boats. Hitler was building ships in France. British supplies were cut off, so they started sailing in convoy to avoid detection. U-Boats then hunted the seas in wolf-packs. Churchill asked Roosevelt for help. The Lend-lease act was born. Through the Atlantic Charter, Great Britain and America protected the Atlantic together. Two hundred forty-nine of the three hundred U-Boats that Dernitz had originally asked for were made. America was turning out three ships a day. Fifteen hundred in all were made. American ships were being made faster than the Germans could sink them. Ninety-two ships were sunk off the coasts of Boston, New York City, Washington D.C., and Miami. Twenty-five ships were sunk off the coast of Florida because residents fearing that their tourist trade would be hurt, refused to turn off their lights. The war had actually been brought to our shores. This is a little-known fact.

Finally, in 1942, “Enigma,” the German code, was broken. Sonar enabled us to pinpoint German U-Boats. Airships destroyed U-Boats with two depth charges called “Hedgehogs” and “Squibbs.” Some German captains surrendered their U-Boats rather than risk capture. The German Kriegsmarine had been beaten.

Well, the game asks us to bring up "What Ifs?" There you go... it was a huge contribution, that we really don't have the option to What if about. Also U-boats should effect US readiness.

[JerseyJohn]

Liam

A terrific posting, really enjoyed it.

When I was a child the memory of the war years were fresh enough that on summer nights when I'd walk with my parents in Brooklyn's Shore Road neighborhood, near the present Verazanno Narrows Bridge, I'd often hear people talking about the tankers and other ships they'd seen torpedoed right outside New York Harbor during the war.

Many of those ships were sunk off the coast of New Jersey the South Shore of Long Island. As you mentioned, it took a long time for people to observe black out rules.

Also, American Admiral King thought, for a long time, that convoys were unnecessary and, due to a personnal dislike of the British, did not at first confer with them.

Beyond that, numerous newspaper postings tipped the Germans off (even with their lousy spy system) to ship departures and convoy forming. After sinking vessals the German Admiralty took the U-boat commanders at their word on claimed tonnages they'd sent under, but looked up the true figures through insurance claims posted openly in newspapers like the New York Times and Wall Street Journal.

The Battle of the River Platte in 1939 between the German Pocketbattlship Graf Spee (six 11" guns) and the British Heavy Cruisers Exeter (8" guns), Achillies and Ajax (both 6" guns) is very interesting. The British split their forces, forcing the Graf Spee to divide her fire between the two smaller ships and their larger partner. The Exeter was nearly sunk and returned to England where it's crew received a heroic welcome. Ajax and Achilles shadowed the Graf Spee to port.

A short time later, believing the Brits had formed a powerful fleet outside the estuary, Captain Langsdorf took his largely unrepaired ship to the mouth of the river and scuttled her.

He didn't do a good job of wrecking it's then cutting edge gunnery radar, which was carefully studied by the British.

This class of vessel was a result of the Versailles Treaty naval limitations. At approximately 10-12,000 tons they carried 11" guns, very powerful for such small ships, and in the thirties they were touted as being able to outshoot anything they couldn't ourrun and outrun anything they couldn't outshoot! Not quite accurate as their 26 knots was slower than that of the three British Battlecruisers Hood, Renown and Repulse, all late WW I vintage. By 1939 they were already slower than the new battleships being built all over the earth.

They were used as surface raiders by virtue of their huge range. The 11" guns were too large for this purpose and secondary ammunition was needed to fight smaller vessals. They'd have probably been best used in combination with smaller warships against lightly escorted convoys. Later in the war the surviving two ships of this class were occasionally combined in this sort of group, but never succeeded in taking on a convoy. The four knot gap made them poor couplings for Bismark and Tirpitz while the six knot difference was even worse in working with Scharnhorst and Gneisenau.

Techically they were part of a unique ship class sometimes called armored ships or armored cruisers . I read one frustrated description that was something like: slow cruisers of an exceptionally heavy type. The term PocketBattleship was a popular one with the dual appeal of allowing the British to exaggerate their potency while the Germans favored it for exactly the same reason!

After the war Gross Admiral Erich Raeder was given a prison sentence for violating the Versailles treaty by directing their construction in the waning days of the Weimar Republic. His defense was, without them Germany would have been left with no navy to speak of. His was probably the flimsiest and most idiotic of all war crime convictions.

Liam Your posting on this subject comes at a good time as I've just begun a forum on a similar topic involving a pair of scenarios.

The function of U-boats in SC has been discussed in several past Forums. There was also a German surface ship program that was well underway at the War's start but suffered from Hitler's vacilation's. I'd like to direct you and anyone else interested in this subject to the Forum I opened a few minutes ago regarding a German Naval Option scenario.

As always, I'm eager to hear your views.

[ January 19, 2003, 07:15 AM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[Genghis]

I forgot who said "If you kill one person, you are a murderer; if you kill a million, you are a conquerer!" but it's a good quote

JerseyJohn

Aye my grandaddy was too soft hehe....he should have conquered all of Europe and Britain.

I could now be sitting on the throne of England with power over billions....MUWHAHAHAHAAHA!

Everyone would be forced to pay me tribute and I'd be adored by millions of women! Sorry getting carried away LOL!

But alas fate would have it that I'm just a burned out wargamer, sitting alone, poor, and womanless.

I just play numerous games of SC and contemplating what could have been

I guess I should write a book called the Pathetic legacy of Genghis in the 21st century

[ January 19, 2003, 05:20 PM: Message edited by: Genghis ]

[Liam]

JJ:: Yeah, pocket battleships? I think another waste of resources for the Germans. There ME262s, their rockets, their rocket planes. Their rocket bombs, the V-1 & 2 programs. They had a name for Hitler's special weapons<should've been waststugutz>. All the German fleet, was kept in port mostly where it stayed or died out in the vulnerable Seas. The U-boats were a must they were the only thing that could survive the British Navy.

I know Admiral King was an Anglophoibs, why he didn't listen to Brit intelligence that told him U-boats were heading for our coastlines, where they were at and what they intended to do.

What an idiot, does someone have a luger for that guy!

I also have heard about a German destroyer operating in the Indian Ocean. Scared the hell out of the Aussies! That and a submarine at the end of the War that was heading towards Japan that supposedly had various designs for jet aircraft and rumored to have platoniom<crude form> that could have been used in some sort of dirty bomb. Given the Jap's history of Suicide Weapons they had designed a submarine that launched a light bomber. Imagine there or four of those off the coast of San Fransico! Luckily we sank her..Though along with the gold and everything else, it's unsubstantiated.

RE:

These people that don't enjoy to argue history! Well! Get lost then! If you don't like it, then go Kiss the Union Jack for saving your butts. They paid a hell of a lot more in human lives than we did during the War! Russians, nowonder they dislike us, they fought our ground war vs the Germans while we said a 2nd front will be too costly. We cannot afford to lose 500k in men that would be unacceptable! Wussies! Look at the millions of persecuted Jews/Gypsies/Slavs/Homosexuals/Handicapped people,etc... That the Nazis tormented and we knew about it and never bombed their Railways leading into this camps. I don't care about cost of bombers, we should've bombed the camps and put the poor people out of their misery.

Of course the Russians were no different and the End, War is Hell. Though right now if it served our purpose as a nation we'd Nuke N.Korea. Whilst 2% of the population is the culprit of their threat. What about the millions of innocent people that are like, NO DON'T PLEASE!!!

Like I said there are no rules in love & in war and until Americans fully realize this she'll continue to play cat and & mouse with nations like Iraq/N.Korea/etc......... and they'll get away with spending billions of taxpayer money and slowly dwindling our will. Why not occuppy Iraqi's oilfields, pay the War debt off and feed the people and take of them better than Saddam ever did and from there give em back in 20 years

See if I was Dictator of the US we would have a lot less problems. Gotta problem with that France, I can't 3000 ICBMs pointed at Parie

[JerseyJohn]

Genghis

Your tale of woe is truly heart-wrending. My wife saw me weeping at the keyboard and all I could mutter was something about how they let this terrible fate befall an ex-marine and ... thankfully I found the new bottle of gin and managed to open it and after a few hoists it all started again, "... protected our lives and now he's womanless and now he's, uh, he's ..." can't remember what else I muttered as I dozed off. Anyway, it's a damn shame. As a veteran myself I'm looking into VA programs for you; surely there's one that finds your address and sends a woman!

[if there are any women out there you have my profound appologies and besides, you ought to be more sensible than to waste your liberated time reading this macho guy stuff.]

Liam

Agreed the Germans did waste their pocket battleships ; they had no idea what role to assign them after the Graf Spee was sunk. As surface raiders they'd have been okay before the development of radar, but by 1940 they would have been unable to hide from long range flying boats, especially when they began using sophisticated electronics. Once spotted they were doomed, so surface raiding was out. After Deutschland's return -- and she came home with a captured freightor! -- the remaining two armored cruisers (Admiral Scheer never left the Baltic/North Sea area) they pretty much served as part of a fleet in being role to tie British ships up in watching them.

r.e. German Jets, Rocket Planes and Rockets.

Basically fine ideas but developed too late in the war to be of much use. Hitler kept moving back and forth from one program to another. Also, Goering kept screwing him up with misleading information and the Luftwaffe usually had some research program of it's own running that was competing senselessly with what the army was already researching, draining resources that could have been better funnelled in one direction. Like Hitler, Goering would soon lose interest in these things and begin on something else. Their basic approach was wrong. He was finally cut out of the jet and rocket plane loop by Willie Messerschmidt and Erhardt Milch and that was when they began making real progress in these areas; but by that time it was late 1944.

The scary thing is, with better organization, they might have been there over two years earlier. At the very least that would have spared German industry from the American and British strategic bombing attacks.

"The U-boats were a must they were the only thing that could survive the British Navy."

Up till 1943, yes, but after the entire Atlantic was covered by aircraft (bases in Iceland and Greenland, numerous trunk carriers, enough to both guard convoys and search for U-boats with destroyer flotillas, etc.. In order to succeed the U-boats needed support from surface ships. Germany needed a fast, strong task force with at least one fleet carrier operating out of France to help protect the sups from detection by Allied Flying boats and bombers in a recon role.

". . . a submarine at the end of the War that was heading towards Japan that supposedly had various designs for jet aircraft and rumored to have platoniom<crude form> that could have been used in some sort of dirty bomb. Given the Jap's history of Suicide Weapons they had designed a submarine that launched a light bomber. . ."

There were several clandestine Japanese submarine runs to Europe during the war and much more numerable U-boat runs to Japan. No Axis A-bomb programs ever really got off the ground, but as you say, even a large explosion with nuclear materials near a large city would have killed a great number of people. When the war reached the Caucasus the Germans also sent long range aircraft back and forth to Manchuria and there was an exchange of information between the two countries. Japan began to belatedly receive radar technology from their ally, something that would probably have saved them at Midway and the other major Pacific battles already fought and lost. They also received plans for V-1 rockets, which they promptly outfitted as piloted smart bombs which, fortunately, were never effectively employed.

What the Japanese had in abundance by war's end was plague cannisters. They were very successful pioneers in germ warfare, having experimented with it for years using Chinese towns and civilians as test subjects. The U. S. knew this and negotiated with them as the war came to a close. That's the reason so many Japanese war criminals went untried. It's also one of the reasons the Japanese were so well treated by the defacto Daimyo, Gen. Douglas MacArthur and the post war United States Government.

"These people who don't like to argue history -- well, get lost then!"

Give'em Hell Liam!

[ January 19, 2003, 06:29 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[Wachtmeister]

Although the pocket BB's were swept from the seas early in the war, Some of Germany's 10 auxilliary cruiser raiders (also called Q-ships by the RN) lasted until Dec '42. These "stealth raiders" sank a condiderable portion of the 182 ships (1.15 million tons) credited to German WWII surface raiders.

Some details follow: {Excerpt From "German Raiders in the Pacific"}

Quote:

The operations of the German auxiliary cruisers covered the period from April 1940 to December 1942. In all, ten ships were employed, one of them making two cruises. Five were destroyed during their cruises in the Atlantic, Pacific, and Indian Oceans, one was destroyed by an explosion and fire in harbor at Yokohama, and another was damaged in the English Channel and returned to Germany. That they were efficient fighting ships of their type was shown by the fact that one raider in three separate actions out-ranged and damaged two British armed merchant cruisers and sank a third, H.M.S. Voltaire. Another raider, the Kormoran, was responsible for the loss with all hands of H.M.A.S. Sydney, though she herself was sunk by that cruiser.

Three of the raiders were oil-burning steamships; one was a diesel-electric twin-screw vessel; the others were motor vessels. The largest was of 9,800 tons and the smallest of 3,287 tons gross register. All were officially known by numbers, but these were apparently allotted at random, and the fact that there was a ship No. 45 did not indicate that there were forty-five raiders. They were also given 'traditional' names. The raiders were very well equipped and capable of remaining at sea for at least twelve months, with the assistance of fuel tankers and supply ships, supplemented by oil and stores taken from captured vessels. Great use was made of disguise. Special workshops and mechanics were carried for this purpose and also for the extensive repair work made necessary by long periods at sea.

In general the raiders' armament comprised six 5.9-inch guns, a number of small guns, and four or more torpedo tubes; they were fitted with the director system of fire control as well as elaborate wireless telegraphy plants. Most of them carried a small seaplane and several were equipped for minelaying. Whatever their tactics in approaching a victim, the attack was always sudden and ruthless, the primary targets being the ship's wireless room, navigating bridge, and defensive gun.

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[Liam]

Yeah, I just love history that's why we play this game. We're reliving a part of it...<not fully accurate maybe in 20 years from now you'll open SC14 and you'll go, "OH MY LORD!"

I still don't believe Germany's attempt at a surface fleet as being worth the risk. She needed the u-boats in large #s early as Dernitz had asked to completely choke Britian and make her life a living hell. <they would've been more effective than all the other programs combined, a U-boat navy> With Britian having practically no supply, no aircraft, from endless Suicidal German air raids, aerial engagements. Her people on the verge of starvation...Down to rations of like 1 ciggerate a month... She would have had diminished ability to hold the Suez, which would've been overrun earlier. Then her pipeline to the east and west would be covered and all her ships from the Pacific and colonies would have to be called back to do nothing but watch her convoys. Leaving Japan to pick off her colonies and Australia more easily in the battle of the Coral Sea and conquest of Papua New Guniea.

Having much more versatility with her aircraft then her navy, and the ability to make alterations faster. She could have adapted some of those long range Recon fighters as torpedo bombers... to level anything that came in the way of a Sea Lion or anything close to her shores as a threat. Russia was in no position to enter a real War in 1941. So time was on his side, yes it was yes it was. Though Hitler was should've a Painter. I thought his work was 6 on a 1-10 scale. He could've painted portraits and sold em for a 2 duestchmarks a pop

[JerseyJohn]

WachtMeister

Great input. One of the German Q-ships was much stronger, actually armed with heavier -- cruiser strength main guns. I think Immer wrote something about it earlier. That particular vessel sank an Australian cruiser and went down herself after the battle. She operated in the South Atlantic and Indian Oceans.

Liam

Hitler's paintings were fine at showing buildings and bridges but his people were virtual stick figures. I think it's more likely he'd have painted landscapes than portraits. It's a pity he wasn't admitted to either archetectural or art school before WW I. As an untrained artist he wasn't really that bad, as you point out. A bit ironic that his nemesis, Churchill, also enjoyed painting and was quite adept at it. I think Mussolini painted houses in his youth and Stalin painted the Steppes red.

Regarding the German navy issue of subs vs surface vessels: historically I think Hitler should have backed Doenitz' U-boat warfare much more than he did; Germany might well have won if those subs waisted along the Norwegian coast had been reassigned to wolfpacks. In the game, however, I think it's more useful for Germany to have some additional surface ships; BBs and ACs.

[Genghis]

Well it was certainly a good thing that Hitler never really understood naval matters much.

The German Z plan should have had the German navy ready by 1946 or so with all their surface raiders/battleships and subs ready for action.

The navy just wasn't ready in 1939 for all out war.

I think the Germans were planning to build some super battleships as well exceeding Bismark and Tirpitz capacity.

Course I think I am repeating what was already said again hehe.

Liam -

You can be my henchman/lacky when I become the world's benevolent dictator

My organization will resemble SPECTRE like in those early Bond movies.

[ January 19, 2003, 10:16 PM: Message edited by: Genghis ]

[JerseyJohn]

Genghis

Be patient my friend, I've just contacted a VA hospital about a nice program -- they said this being a long weekend and all -- but hold on, I'm sure help will be on the way come Tuesday, or perhaps in February or March sometime, depending upon budget cuts. Of course the lunatics who have been running things the past twenty years or so are just as likely to bankroll your project as an answer to rogue governments.

I picture you in a Dr. No setting combined with elements of Goldfinger , characters like odd Job popping out from behind shrubbery and you walking along with a snifter of cognac telling terrified guests, "I'm quite liberal, really. Quite misunderstood as well. But that need not concern any of you fine people -- oh, yes, do be careful of the snake pit -- and the crocodile sentries by the gate."

Henchman/Lacky sounds like a civil service position with a level number attached.

German Battleships

The next group after Bismark and Tirpitz would have been the Hindenburg class, six of which were planned. They'd have been incrementally larger than the Bismarck class to accomodate 8x16" guns in four double turrets, exactly like the earlier ships. Also like the earlier ships they'd have shared the same armor flaws in terms of the rudder and communications area. I believe the design would have been changed prior to construction.

Beyond the Hindenburgs, Hitler was talking about a mega leap to BBs of 85,000 tons displacement with 20" main guns. I think one of those might actually have been built if he'd succeeded in conquering European Russia and ending the war with England. After the first they'd have realized America's Atomic boms made all ultra heavy ships once and for all obsolete. The Bikini Atoll ship tests clearly indicate one of the reasons the U. S. was so glad to have A-Bombs; what better way to stop an approaching fleet?

[ January 19, 2003, 11:34 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[Liam]

Ghengis! Only if I get 10 MILLION DOLLARS!!! HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!

"I'll be Mini-me!"

JJ:

Those huge battleships were even obsolete in comparison with regular bombers/divebombers... Hitler always wanted to make it bigger Maybe he lacked somewhere we don't know about ?

The thing being that even Nukes at that time, were not a complete killer. We would have needed quite a few devices and a great delivery system to ensure that we got them good! Also, to make sure German Scientists didn't create one of their own. They were quite adept...If not for a few brave Brit Commandos and Norwegians. They'd of had a great component in there attempt at the Blitz Bomb???

[JerseyJohn]

Liam

It still isn't known if the German scientists didn't have a clue about building an A-bomb or they just didn't want to design one for the Nazis. After hearing about the bombs dropped on Japan, their conversations were taped by conceiled microphones and within a day, going by the descriptions of the explosions, they had the bombs pinned down to uranium and plutonium!

They didn't have the resources to actually build one during World War II, even had they known how. In a postwar setting, assuming they'd have controled the [belgian] Congo, with it's rich uranium, it's a distinct possibility.

At Bikini atoll the same ships were used for both an above and below water test. One of the vessels was the German heavy cruiser Prinz Eugen , which held up well to the impacts and was later sunk by naval fire along with the other ships that were still floating. There's no doubt, however, that all of the crew members would have been killed in such an action.

[ January 20, 2003, 01:07 AM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]