What Ifs? of SC

[Liam]

Still the delivery system of 1945 was a B-29? 1000 regular outfitted heavy bombers are as deadly. Even in B-17s. 12 500lbs bombs... That's a very conservative bombload for the new improving Heavy Bombers at around the end of WW2. Tokyo was firebombed and it did far more damage than the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombs. Now nukes, have a ball fire type blast that are extremely effective if you know where your target is. Though with good air defense if you didn't have more 10 or 20 devices I don't see nukes ending a War with a nation that was still very much on his feet...Perhaps one that was well on it's way out like Japan was.... Seeing if all those crude A-Bombs found their target without...A. Being shot down, or missed<which we did probably 1/4th the time> and public opinion towards a country that is defeating a nation not by fighting it's Navy/Army/Airforce but rather genociding it's people cause that is the most effective use of nukes...

As mentioned above, area bombing<practiced extensively by the British in Germany and by the Americans in Japan> did much much more damage but still never decisively ended the Wars. Japan was losing, the bombs were just America's strong arm pushing her into what she needed to do... She had no hopes of winning, and she was going to cause a huge toll in human lives with Kamikaze Weapons. Russia was storming her China... America had liberated almost everything she had owned in Island possessions. Our subs were sinking them relative to what the U-boats had done to the Brits in '39 '40..

Now if you could mass produce say 500-1000 bombs you could eradicate everything a civilization could build. Which I think America would've accomplished in another Year perhaps. I wonder what German intelligence would've been had she had her strength in '45 and would she have made some sort decisive move anticipating an A-Bomb from the US? I.E. relocating POWs to all industrial/Military production centers. If the War was unfavourable by that point would we eve have had the option? Or maybe she would be only a year away herself fully dedicated to bombbuilding. So in turn could've done damage to us...

[JerseyJohn]

Liam

Good points; very interesting posting.

In 1945 radiation poisoning and fallout were still an enigma. The top scientists knew about it but I doubt they had a very good idea of it's effects. It took the five years of the late forties and the observation of Hiroshima and Nagisaki survivors gradually dying off to confirm the lingering effects of these weapons.

The United States was also aware that virtually all the sailors and scientists who had been present for the Bimini Atoll tests had, within a few years, developed some form of cancer. Statistics are unavailable and rarely publicized and both the Department of Defense and the Department of the Navy deny the sailors were put at any extroadiary risk -- despite the fact they remained in nuclear contaminated waters for several days and showered in water taken through the ship's purification system.

Thruought the fifties the Army also conducted detonation tests near Las Vegas. Part of the drill was to have a line of infantrymen with what considered safety precautions stand up from a line of trenches after the initial shock wave had passed, and walk through the blast area.

Supposedly this was for the purpose of developing nuclear war tactics.

Needless to say many of the soldiers involved later died of cancer and, also needless to say, as in the cases of Vietnam's Agent Orange, the U. S. Government assumed no responsibility and claims none of the involved soldiers developed cancer as a result of the maneuvers.

I had an uncle who took part in those maneuvers. He used to tell me about all the colors he'd see bouncing around in the trench and how they were only dulled reflections, the actual blast would have blinded anyone even just glancing at it. He died in his fifties of cancer. I guess walking through a nuclear wasteland had nothing to do with that, he no doubt contracted it later as a locksmith.

The B-29 was a good nuclear delivery system. The United States was very smug for several years after the war about having both the bomb and the only delivery system. It wasn't long before the world learned Russia also had the bomb. Then at a May Day parade they flew a large number of Soviet bombers that were identical in every way to the American bomber!

The U. S. knew that during the Pacific War several B-29s had made emergency landings at Vladivostok and none had been returned. This was not a big concern to the Defence Department as they felt the Soviets couldn't make a copy even if they somehow figured it all out, which they didn't think was possible. Within a few years, however, they'd reverse engineered all the aircraft, had their own detailed prints and proceeded to import -- principally from the United States -- whatever they couldn't manufacture through Sweden, Canada and several other Western nations. Ah, those Ivans!

In any case, as the Soviets themselves demonstrated in Korea, the B-29 was little more than a ponderous target for modern jet fighters like the Mig and it's American/British counter-parts.

[SeaWolf_48]

What if, the German Scientist had developed the bomb. I've read that the leader of the german project for the atomic weapon, misslead the other scintist that heavy water was the answer, also that germany didn't have uranium U-238, and finally (I forget his name) Dr. Sourkraut or something did not trust Hilter with the bomb so he lead all the other scientist into heavy water projects, thus they built the facilities in Norway. Heavy water is H2O2.

We know now that it would have taken about 10 tons of heavy water to make a bomb (that is 22,000 lbs. of water plus the weight for the container and detenator, the size of a freight car). Hard to deliver!

But what if their scientist made U-235 somehow, what would Hitler have done with this weapon. How would he have delivered the bomb? Who would he have used it on?

Let's say he has his first bomb July 1, 1944 (a few days before the assassination attemp). With one delivered every 60 days after that.

Give me some senarios guys!

[ January 22, 2003, 11:24 AM: Message edited by: SeaWolf_48 ]

[Wachtmeister]

Sea Wolf_48:

Without going,I hope, into too much technical, offer the following by way of clarification in regard to the German, or any, Atomic bomb make up.

"Heavy Water" is the common name for Deuterium Oxide, formula D2O. Deuterium is an isotope of hydrogen having one proton and one neutron in the nucleus, while common hydrogen has one proton, 0 neutrons. I believe that the D2O would have been used as a moderator [or neutron absorber]to control the chain reaction within an atomic "pile". The active atomic bomb ingredient is Uranium 235(U-235), rather than U-238. Therefore, the heavy water is not part of the atomic bomb itself. Instead, it is part of the process needed to make sufficient U-235 to achieve critical mass, which, in turn, produces the uncontrolled chain reaction we know as an atomic explosion.

[Liam]

With all German those German Genuises, I think someone could've made a crude weapon eventually! At least within a year or two of the United States given she put the effort forth.

JJ:

I am shocked at Soviet aviation, they always make people's heads turn. They have some fairly awesome aircraft by even today's standards over a decade after the fall of the Soviet Union.

At the time of WW2, the A-Bomb would've been quite a terror weapon. In large quantity it would definitely deal hellish damage. On Ships, land forces and industry. Though it would take quite a few devices and you also know how good the Germans were at taking terror bombing. I could also see two thousand ME 262s <upgraded versions> screaming through the skies of France and Germany hammering B-29s on their way to deliver Nukes...

Germany scattering her population to the country as the Brits had done. Moving her Industry beyond reach of our bombers. They'd already lost millions against the Soviets and Allies, I think Hitler would've stayed in the fight and the Germans would adapt to Nuclear fall out on that small of a scale in 1945. Though if The USA was building hundreds of such weapons decimating Europe into rubble, in the end he'd likely have a Empire of Ruins...

Hitler had plenty of his own tricks. I figure if he had 6 months or a year to plan to hurt America we'd settle for peace. Britian/Russia both having fallen. Nukes would only be used for a decisive victory...

OHHH, I know about Goverment Coverups. Gulf War Disease is like what? You got a headache, you feel a little ill. I think that I have never fired a bullet though may have GWS

What do you get? Huh, mmmmmmmm. Errrrrrr. crap

Every Veteran that has been wounded in combat<especially those who're disabled> Deserve a house<a nice one> and 2k a month...With FULL medical and not that <next year we'll take a look at that>

and I never served in the Forces so I would never get any compensation. If I contracted the disease it would have been from my Father's exposure to what Toxin???

[SeaWolf_48]

Professor Wachtmeister, you are probably right about the usage of Heavy Water, I'm not a neuclear scientist, actually a Mech Engr, but U-235 is bad stuff.

Do you know if a hydrogen bomb is an fision bomb? You seem to be explaining a Hydrogen bomb above.

And how would Hitler have used an atom bomb?

[ January 22, 2003, 11:25 AM: Message edited by: SeaWolf_48 ]

[Wachtmeister]

I am not by any stretch of the imagination a nuclear expert. My degree is Chemistry, I have done some Radiation protection work at some nuclear power plants, so I do know a few basics.

The rough description above is for a an atomic bomb or fission device.

A fission type atom bomb itself can be relatively simple. The Hiroshima bomb called "tall boy" was basically detonated by driving two sub-critical masses of U-235 together to achieve the required critical mass for the explosion. The 2nd operational bomb, "fat man", used a sub-critical spherical mass surrounded by conventional explosive charges that were set off in a precise sequence to compress the U-235 to criticality - then... BOOM.

The hard part of fission bomb manufacture is separating and refining the fissile U-235 or, later, Plutonium used for such devices.

The so called hydrogen bomb is a fusion device. As I understand it, the active ingredient for the fusion portion is the 3rd isotope of hygrogen, Trittium, which has 2 neutrons and 1 proton making up its nucleus. The fusion bomb converts the excess the mass - left over when hydrogen nuclei are fused to form Helium - into energy in accordance with Einstein's famous equation E=MC2. This is the same reaction that produces the energy from the sun. Hydrogen fusion requires so much energy to initiate, that a small atomic fission device is used as a "trigger" to detonate a fusion bomb.

[SeaWolf_48]

Very intresting my good man, you seem to know your sh_t. I did look at the periodic chart and Hydrogen has no neutrons, helium has two neutrons.

Am I wrong in that an atom bomb is a fusion bomb, and the hydrogen bomb is a fision bomb? I've read that they use a fusion bomb to start a fision reaction for a hydrogen bomb? Please set me straight.

[ January 22, 2003, 11:28 AM: Message edited by: SeaWolf_48 ]

[JerseyJohn]

SeaWolf_48 & WachtMeister

Interesting discussion. There was a substitute the Germans could have used for uranium conversion instead of heavy water. I think it was shale or some other solid substance. Werner Heisenberg, the head of their program knew this but steered the program toward using heavy water instead, lending credence to the idea that he was deliberately delaying or preventing his own program.

As a scientist Heisenberg was on the level of Niels Bohr, Enrico Fermi and Max Planck -- all of whom were European refugees working on the American Bomb! !

VERY Useful Information at the following Websites

left click here for a Brief Biogrophy of Dr. Werner Carl Heisenberg, the Head of Germany's Atomic Bomb Program

left click here for a 16 page Article discussing Einstein and Heisenberg as Contemporary Physicists.

left click here for A Brief History of the American Atomic Bomb Program (Manhattan Project).

Liam

Yes, the Soviets as aircraft designers were always underated. After the war they benefitted greatly by coming into numerous German jet aircraft designers along with the planes and design records. The mig series was, in large part, due to that windfall. Concerning the German nuclear scientists, they certainly had the know how to design a nuclear device but lacked the resources to either properly test their ideas (and unlike the Las Alamos scientists, they would have been subjected to bombing raids) or manufacture the finished product. If they'd had one there's no doubt they could have found an aircraft that could have dropped it on Britain, but the A-Bombs of that time were probably too heavy for the Germans to have taken across the Atlantic.

You paint a nightmare picture of the war ending in nuclear warfare. As Wachtmeister points out, an H-Bomb is so many multiples more powerful than the earlier nuclear devices it requires a small A-Bomb for a detonating device!

But I'm sure, even using the comparatively weak bombs of the time, your description would have left Europe a nuclear wasteland to this very day.

I'd like to say it wouldn't have happened, but at this point I believe hamankind is deranged enough to do almost anything. Especially when the Hitler's and Stalin's are thrown into the mix.

By the way, here's hoping neither you or your father have anything picked up from the Gulf. Even before Agent Orange was publicized the me and a lot of guys I served with used to complain about how quick the officers always seemed to be to spray things. If you played softball on the base and a few gnats came out a truck would come out of nowhere fogging everything. We used to joke about how they were really spraying us, and I've since come to believe we were exactly right. We were their test subjects.

[ January 21, 2003, 02:46 AM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[Liam]

Atom Bombs were very powerful, I doubt that Iraq or N.Korea would have something much more advanced than a crude one. So we figured that out in 1945 and the Germans may have been a few years away from it. Shows you the gap between our nation and theirs, Scientists.

I doubt that the War would have carried on if Russia and England were defeated. I still think that they would have been done in the conventional way if they were going to be done at all. Saying by 1942 Hitler stormed the major cities and took the Urals for himself. Then Japan would've chopped of Siberia for herself<what she wanted> and the West would have to negotiate some sort of peace.

N.Africa would fall, and quickly India and all of British Possessions overseas, save N.America. The Axis plan was to meet in India...Germany via the Suez and Japan via india...Then cutting off Russia from any supply. I don't see where that makes much sense it's not like she got much supply from the Persian Gulf or the Far East?

[GDS_STARFURY]

German "virus house' atom bomb project

Leipzig Sphere Plutonium Generator

You all may find these interesting

[ January 21, 2003, 03:18 AM: Message edited by: GDS_STARFURY ]

[Liam]

Yeah, some of that stuff is frightening. The base I use to live at near Monterey<beautiful> had to be cleaned up before they let the College go up there? What was wrong with it BEFORE?

I am sitting there going, hmmmmm. One of my old bud's last his Dad to Gulf War Syndrome. Don't know if it was what was in our Syringes or in what we exploded. Now our troops may land their butts their again. He'll probably fire em this time. Somebody should've done their job a long time ago. How many more Bushes will have to come & go!

[JerseyJohn]

GDS_STARFURY

I found both links to be extremely interesting and I'm sure I'll continue to do so for a long time to come!

Liam

Very well put. The '91 decision to stop was beyond stupid, it was criminal. Not sending part of the Left Flank of Desert Storm to take Baghdad has always been a mystery to me. It was even more of a mystery when Stormin' Norman pointed it out on the map, specified that the city could have been taken any time we wanted it, but we didn't want it. I'm sure I wasn't alone in sitting there shaking my head. What the hell was that about? The guy even then was an out and out war criminal and a murderer almost without parrellel if you figure the percentage of his own population that he's killed, and we have a four star general on TV telling the world we're going out of our way to not to throw this bastard out of power while at the same time our president was appealing to his people to rebel.

Amazing. :confused:

Earlier I posted some information about Werner Heisenberg, the Head of Germany's Atomic Bomb project. No account of the great scientist would be complete without his would be assassin, the American Moe Berg . Throughout the 1930s Berg was a third string major leage catcher, and a multi-linguist, and an FBI spy! He gathered information about Japan while on playing tours, and later served extensively in Europe during the war.

At one point he posed as a graduate student attending a lecture given by Dr. Heisenberg in Switzerland. Berg was concealing a gun and had instructions to engage Heisenberg in a private conversation; if he decided Germany could build an Atomic Bomb he was instructed to kill the scientist. Strangely, considering the decision he was being asked to make, a knowledge of physics was not among Berg's many and considerable talents. After talking a while he decided to leave Heisenberg alive and set off on other assignments. Years later Heisenberg was asked if he recalled the incident (but not told the details) and said something to the effect of, Yes, the big American -- he was quite odd and kept talking about nothing.

The following NY Times obituary contains a good and humorous bio of the man.

left click for a Photo and Obituary/Biosketch of America's WW II Atomic Spy, the amazing, Moe Berg

Regarding the latest What-Ifs :

Germany armed and trained thousands of Hindus and many of them attempted to link up with the 1944 Japanese drive from Burma. The Japanese were stopped and made little effort to cooperate with the rebels. Their leader escaped India. I don't remember his name but hopefully someone else will. He reached Japanese occupied territory and died in an airplane crash.

Ghandi's pacifist demonstrations have always received nearly all the credit for convinceing the British they should grant full independance, but I think the fact they finally realized thousands of Hindus and Moslems were ready to take up arms against them also had a lot to do with it.

Mahatma Ghandi was approached by Japanese agents to speak out against the British and in favor of the Emperor. He replied that Japan was the greater threat to his people because they were fellow Asians.

I don't think either Japan or Germany had a real shot at meeting in India, but I believe they might have incited a pro-Axis revolution in the country and that would probably have helped them just as much as conquering it.

Which presents another consideration in the event SC 2 goes Global.

[ January 21, 2003, 07:12 AM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[Wachtmeister]

GDS_STARFURY:

Thanks for the information.

The link to the site showing Leipzig Plutonium Sphere,inclludes a drawing of the reactor that clearly shows that the heavy water is used as the moderator.

Jersey John & Sea Wolf_48:

The alternative moderator you mention is probably graphite, a form of carbon. So, an oil type shale with a high carbon content might serve the purpose. The USA Manhatten Project used a pile of graphite blocks as the moderator, hence the term "atomic pile"

A fairly complete description of thw Manhatten project my be found here: Manhatten Project Description

This site includes some diagrams showing fission and fusion at the atomic level, which should answer Sea Wolf_48's question.

[SeaWolf_48]

Thanks Wachtmeister, got my answer on a site called "Outlaw Labs". Sounds scary aye. Ah the wonders of fission and fussion bombs. One US Neuclear sub has 25 times the explosive power of WW2. Arn't you glad No. Korea has joined the Neuclear family, Have a nice day!

[Liam]

JJ:

The Military doesn't really allow you take much action against them either. I suppose it is that way for a reason. We do need a certian amount of Martial Law for our Federal Lands/Experiments/etc... However underhanded and cruel it may be to it's people. The Bigger picture being that they can learn a great deal which wouldn't be justified or legal. Kind of like the Germans did with Jews<the many experiments> Though luckily, a GOOD General I would feel would ride on his Horse in front with his men. To take whatever came... Like Patton...

Charismatic and fight any injustice to Soldiers who serve and die in the name of Freedom and their country.<lately the World's REAL peacekeepers> The most Free country that I have ever known about besides maybe the Netherlands and a few others European minors.

How couldn't you take Saddam out? Who in the Hell made this decision? I would like to personally back slap him like a redheaded step child!!! This man is so much like Stalin, it's not even funny...he admires him too!

I didn't know about Pro-Axis Supporters/Sympathizers in India. I heard about them in Iraq<in fact Saddam's uncle and mentor was one>. Of course they did act, wisely! It would have cost them their independance as Britian or Russia would've most certianly taken them in a heartbeat. I also heard that during WW1 or WW2 that Germany incited the African Colonies of France and Britian to be break away.

I don't know how they could influence those nations but interesting thought. WW2 was the turning point in the break up of the traditional Colonial Powers and the Birth of the New SuperPowers. Between the two Wars anyways...

I know now more than ever if Japan would've been wise enough to take India. EARLY! Cut off the supply to Australia..Perhaps sneak into egypt and S.Africa from such a perfect location and also throw Australia on top of the cake. She could've made herself a Supreme Power. Unstoppable on land. It would've taken the combined Might of the US and USSR<who was busy with Germany> to pull that anchor out. Instead they consolidated their gains after their storm across Indo-China and Pacific Oceanic regions. Not wise... Burma was the stepping stone. the Next mission should've been to devour India and effectively destroy the British Empire. Germany would've helped in Egypt early... The US was remarkable, a lot of people say differently. She was an Economic powerhouse but the Japs had the Navy and the Americans didn't... Midway changed that permanently... Just amazing that so few in such a crisis came out so far ahead...With really more obsolete equipment than their foes...

I think that gamble was a huge mistake... Though I suppose leaving the 6th in Stalingrad was every bit big. Perhaps a slow withdrawl from USSR could've been another good year or two on Nazi Germany's life... and hopes of some sort of diplomatic solution. With a coup de tat over Hitler...ever heard of Stiener?

[JerseyJohn]

WachtMeister

Great Manhattan Project Link and yes, I do believe the alternate to heavy water was graphite; thanks for mentioning it as I was going nuts trying to find out.

Liam

Agreed there has to be an absolute obedience in the chain of command. Privates can't question the decisions of generals, but the privates also need to have faith in the decisions of their leaders or it doesn't work. For one thing, I don't believe in making a big issue over friendly fire casualties. What difference does it make whose weapon kills you during the battle; if an air or artillery strike is called in and wins it's unfortunate if some friendly troops become casualties through honest mistakes but should not be an occaision for some hometown politician to launch an overblown investigation and seek to ruin the officer in charge. On the other hand, the military itself should be competant enough to investigate such incidents honestly and -- NOT -- conceal or destroy relevant facts to make itself look good.

One of your statements seems to imply American military doctors using unwitting servicement for experiments is justified on the basis of Nazi Scientists having done the same etc., -- perhaps I'm mistaken but weren't those guys all criminals? Weren't som of them given prison sentences and even executed for their deeds? What medal do you suggest giving American doctors for following in their footsteps! :eek:

When I was in, a little over 30 years ago it seemed as though the government in general and the military in particular made it a policy to lie and deceive at every turn, even when there was no need to do so. First the civilian population began losing faith in it's integrity, then the GIs themselves began losing it. Morale was very low. Vietnam itself was a lie and the government kept making new lies to cover it's previous ones. The insecticide I mentioned was a symptom of this mentality. I do not agree that servicemen should also serve as gunea pigs and nothing should ever be tested on anyone without their consent.

Aside from external materials secretly tested on enlisted men in the sixties, hallucenogenic drugs such as LSD were introduced by the government and tested on any unwilling person they thought they could do it to without arrousing too much suspicion. There are middle aged me walking around today babbling in the streets whose only crime was serving their country. Others, who ran off to Canada and other countries were later welcomed home with open arms when all the fighting was over. One draft dodger even became president.

I'm not sorry I served, thankfully I came out of it all right and was probably better off for having gone in. My attitude would be different if I found out they had subjected me to cancer forming agents so some imbecile in a white jacket could put a check on a clipboard. I've been in VA hospitals and have seen some of these guys. It's pathetic. Lifers in penitentaries have lawyers watching out for them while 18 year olds are slipped harmful drugs so a major looking to become a Lt. Colonel can observe unsual behavior. And that's another thing, the soldier who hallucinates under those conditions is considered a criminal. The whole thing stinks and should be done away with both on an official and unofficial basis.

You mentioned you're sixteen now and from a military family. If there were a war in a couple of years you'd probably serve. I don't think you'd appreciate coming back in four years with half your present IQ, drooling in your soup because some officer wanted to test a new imbecile spray to be used on the enemy. That isn't risking your life for your country, that's being a labratory rat.

-- What Ifs --

I don't think the Japanese could have occupied India with any more success than they had in China. They were too brutal, out of control and too convinced of their own superiority for any native population to put with them for very long. That sort of administration can be done successfully in places with small populations, especially if you're transplanting your own people to the landscape, but not in countries already containing hundreds of millions!

They had millions of discontented people in India to work with and, if they'd done things properly, might have enlisted them to their side through helping them attain independance. As you said, this should have been done early in the war. It would have been smart to plant the seeds of rebellion in all the European Asian colonies long before going to war, then coming in as the great liberator. They attempted to pose in that role but were too clumsy and heavy handed to pull it off.

The plan you discuss makes sense, using Ceylon and Madagascar, and there were Japanese discussions about doing this but in the end they only conducted fleeting, almost trivial actions that had no hope of success. Most likely they were intended as diversions to tie down Common Wealth forces (otherwise bound for defeat in Malaya and Singapore!).

I think they went wrong in not following the Pearl Harbor strike with an actual invasion of the Hawaiian Islands. They'd originally planned it that way then backed off fearing it would make the United States too determined to defeat them. Well, surprise, they couldn't have managed to make them more determined than they were after December 7th! Might just as well have made that landing and crippled the U. S. in the Pacific for at least to or so years.

[ January 22, 2003, 01:10 AM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[Hueristic]

Originally posted by GDS_STARFURY:

German "virus house' atom bomb project

Leipzig Sphere Plutonium Generator

You all may find these interesting

GREAT links Man Thx

[Genghis]

JerseyJohn -

Aye I'm already to check into that VA hospital room you mentioned earlier. But do they have a place fit for an emperor?

Oh and I want a queen by my side (no one fancy...maybe Kirsten Dunst or Denise Richards yummy) hehe

Liam

What boggles my mind is how pro Axis leaders such as Chandra Bose (National India Army) or the Grand Mufti in Jerusalem actually believed Japan and Germany were truly their liberators?

I just can't believe how ignorant these people were into thinking that the Axis powers were going to grant them their freedoms.

[ January 21, 2003, 08:49 PM: Message edited by: Genghis ]

[Hueristic]

Originally posted by JerseyJohn:

Agreed there has to be an absolute obedience in the chain of command.

Wrong Absolute Obedience is what allows things like Holocaust to occur Even the "Lowley" Private must think for himself. Ask a Marine they're taught to think for themself's and they're the Greatest Fighting force the world has ever seen.

Originally posted by JerseyJohn:

For one thing, I don't believe in making a big issue over friendly fire casualties.

Well I do. That's how it's determined whether it was a true accident or some "Slacker" trying to cover his own ass. And the Military does that very well Let me tell you.

Originally posted by JerseyJohn:

What difference does it make whose weapon kills you during the battle; if an air or artillery strike is called in and wins it's unfortunate if some friendly troops become casualties through honest mistakes but should not be an occaision for some hometown politician to launch an overblown investigation and seek to ruin the officer in charge.

I'm Sure if you were on the front line in a foxhole and u were getting shelled from your own lines you'd change your Tone on this one REAL fast. And No-one likes a POS polition trying to make a name off of others misfortune but Unfortunately some americans are too stupid to notice it when it happens and think it's the patriotic thing to do.

Originally posted by JerseyJohn:

On the other hand, the military itself should be competant enough to investigate such incidents honestly and conceal or destroy relevant facts to make itself look good.

I think you meant to Put a NOT in there somewhere. If so then i agree. IF this was a perfect world, but it is most certainly not and where the military is concerned they have the worst record of living up to thier mistakes than any orginization i've ever seen short of a political party.

Originally posted by JerseyJohn:

When I was in, a little over 30 years ago it seemed as though the government in general and the military in particular made it a policy to lie and deceive at every turn, even when there was no need to do so. First the civilian population began losing faith in it's integrity, then the GIs themselves began losing it. Morale was very low. Vietnam itself was a lie and the government kept making new lies to cover it's previous ones. The insecticide I mentioned was a symptom of this mentality. I do not agree that servicemen should also serve as gunea pigs and nothing should ever be tested on anyone without their consent.

AMEN

Originally posted by JerseyJohn:

You mentioned you're sixteen now and from a military family. If there were a war in a couple of years you'd probably serve. I don't think you'd appreciate coming back in four years with half your present IQ, drooling in your soup because some officer wanted to test a new imbecile spray to be used on the enemy. That isn't risking your life for your country, that's being a labratory rat.

Now that's Food for thought.

Originally posted by JerseyJohn:

-- What Ifs --

I don't think the Japanese could have occupied India with any more success than they had in China. They were too brutal, out of control and too convinced of their own superiority for any native population to put with them for very long

.

Absoulutely True. Japs were the most Xenophibic people on the face of the earth at the time. Even to this day they refuse to admit they migrated from china even though archaeologists have irrefutable proof.

Originally posted by JerseyJohn:

I think they went wrong in not following the Pearl Harbor strike with an actual invasion of the Hawaiian Islands. They'd originally planned it that way then backed off fearing it would make the United States too determined to defeat them. Well, surprise, they couldn't have managed to make them more determined than they were after December 7th! Might just as well have made that landing and crippled the U. S. in the Pacific for at least to or so years.

They didn't land because they had no clue that they did as much damage as they actually did. As for pissing us off thier intention was too declare war before the attack but due to thier diplomats being ignored for hours We were never notified of the declaration till after,It was never in the plan to attack before declaration. But this is all common knowledge.

[Gaylord Focker]

Japan, unstoppable on land!?!?

Hardly, has anyone taken into account that most of Japan's small arms were garbage, they actualy had a pistol that would fire if you squeezed it to tight!

Their tanks were worthless, they had an ok machine gun, and no anti tank weapons to speak of besides mines, hardly an offensive weapon.

[JerseyJohn]

Gaylord Focker

I don't recall anyone saying Japan was unstoppabel on land. In 1939 the Soviets had little trouble stopping them twice in Outer Mongolia in the undeclared war the Japanese Army provoked by trying to infiltrate out of Northern China. Part of their problem was they hadn't faced well equipped, well trained and well let armies. After having fought the ill-equipped Chinese for years and winning they began believing in their own invincibility. The claim that they had never been defeated was also a myth; in past centuries they'd crossed over to Korea and lost againt the Chinese, then conveniently withdrew into their shell and became isolationist till the mid-19th century.

[JerseyJohn]

Hueristic

Yes there should be the word NOT in that statement, which I went back and inserted and I hope you'll insert it in the quote you posted. Thanks for bringing it to my attention; that oversight makes the remark totally contrary to what was being said. Why would I make a remark saying generals should do a better job fixing reports, covering their own asses and making all their misdeeds a secret? That sort of runs completely contrary to everything I've ever said here! Yes, I ommitted a word!

The thread about friendly fire deaths was intended as a clarification of understandable friendly caused casualties as opposed to casualties caused by your own side that are not understandable.

I can understand getting killed in battle by a stray shell from your own side intended to help you. Tough but that's the breaks, it happens. I can't understand getting killed because some government big shot wants to test chemical agents or a new drug or whatever and believes enlisted men are okay as laboratory rats.

Of course, whether you're in a foxhole or not, every man in any military activity has his life depend constantly on the guy beside him. In combat it's obvious, but on flightlines and onboard ships it's equally true. I don't need to be lectured on it as I was nearly killed by a 19 year old American who backed a vehicle over me while I was astride a B-52 doing my job with my back turned to him. It was turned because I had no business looking in that direction.

Beyond which I was talking about friendly fire in the WW II sense, where precision was not as well developed. In World War One friendly bombardments nearly always strayed into friedly areas killing some of the very soldiers it was intended to help.

No, I wouldn't want my own people hitting me, nor would I want them parallysed to act because they were afraid of being courtmartialed if the incorrect map co-ordinates had been passed on the them.

As I said before, the military itself should monitor such incidents in an honest, competent investigation without having it turned into a circus with newscrews and politicians. That happened several times during the Vietnam War. To cover themselves from what became the inevitable public lambasting the military became even more secretive and less objective.

No matter what weapons are being used and no matter how accurate they become there will always be casualties caused by friendly fire. I'm against head-hunting after the fact. Period.

[ January 22, 2003, 05:28 AM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[Comrade Trapp]

I agree with you guys for the most part about the Japanese Army, they did not have all that great of weapons, ecspecally towards the end of the war. And their offensive capability wasn't all that great (which was proven in Northern China and Korea when the USSR entered the war and tore apart the "unbeaten" Japanese Army). But we have to admit that even in 1945 the Japanese army still had the capability to take on the allies, even more so on mainland Japan. The entire Japanese army and even the population itself was ready to scarfice themselves to make us pay for every inch of land we gained. That was the how reason for the atomic bomb, to end the war to prevent further allied lose of life. If we had invaded we would have lost hundreds of thousands of men, not to mention the Japanese losses.

[JerseyJohn]

Hueristic

Regarding Pearl Harbor.

The Japanese knew how much damage they'd inflicted and had anticipated doing more.

The original plan called for the sinking of America's Pacific Aircraft carriers. They weren't particularly concerned about the battleships, all of which were of 1920 vintage, it was the carriers they were after. Additionally, they wanted to knock out the submarine pens, the dry docks and the fuel tank storage areas , which by America's own estimation would have put our island landings back by at least a year and prevented the American submarine campaign that sank the Japanese Merchant Marine.

The Original Japanese Central Pacific plan called for the landing of a 70,000 man invasion force on the major islands. In 1941 the islands were garrisoned by approximately an equally large number of Army and Marine troops. After the carrier strike they would have been left without air cover and naval support. The Japanese would have had both as the strike fleet would not have left Hawaiian waters. A more elaborate version called for the sabotaging of the Panama Canal. Most of the United States Fleet was in the Carribean and Atlantic anticipating a war with Germany over American ships being sunk in the convoys.

In the final war plans the landing force was reassigned to the Phillipines.

The Philipines, though close to the Formosa (Taiwan) link in the Japanese lifeline, had no offensive capabilities beyond a squadron of B-17s that were destroyed during the first day's air strikes.

Hawaii was skipped for political, not military reasons. From it's inception the Japanese were convinced they could force a negotiated peace on the United States after their initial successes. If they had realized the commanding Admiral (Nagumo) was going to stop short of sending his third and fourth waves, they might well have included the invasion force and done the job properly.

What the Japanese were so amazed about and rejoicful over was the very light aircraft losses they'd suffered. Yamammoto had anticipated the loss of 1/3 the aircraft allotted and they'd succeeded in doing a lot of damage while losing only a fraction of that figure.

Nagumo's fears in not launching the second part of the attack were (1) that the American Carriers, not being in the harbor, might be in the area and capable of launching an attack on his own task force and (2) that the third and fourthe waves, not having the element of surprise, would suffer much greater losses than the first two. It was those two assaults that were suppossed to hit the dry docks, submarine pens and fuel storage tanks after the first two had knocked out the local air fields, clearing the way for a more decisive assault.

Not sending the third and fourth waves doomed the entire operation to tactical success and strategic failure, which Yammamotto understood perfectly well. That was why he made his famous remark "I fear we have only succedded in waking a slumbering giant . . ." hardly the words of a jubulant commander whose operation had just succeeded to his own satisfaction.

American submarines began operating out of Pearl Harbor almost immediately. Ultimately they succeded in sinking Japan's merchant fleet.

[ January 22, 2003, 05:46 AM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]