zappsweden Posted September 23, 2003 Author Share Posted September 23, 2003 Another thing. I have set the "time to complete challenge" to 24! days. That means, the time to complete a challenge now is identical to the "day being idle before top-10 player drops in ranking". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DalmatiaPartisan Posted September 23, 2003 Share Posted September 23, 2003 nope Zapp-I just remembered when I saw few topics and posts where You were saying to Terif not to play with low rating players and that top players like You and him are should play more often and whenever You got a chance to play eachother not to play with others. Anyway I dont understand why You re so angry-cmon man-we got one basic thing-we like playing SC against humans-and also we like to compete. If You misunderstood tone of my post it was because of my "Tarzan" english... But, still my opinnion is: we dont need challenge system made for only top 5 players... So lets stop arguing-I got enough opportunities for that on court and in life Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zappsweden Posted September 23, 2003 Author Share Posted September 23, 2003 Originally posted by DalmatiaPartisan: nope Zapp-I just remembered when I saw few topics and posts where You were saying to Terif not to play with low rating players and that top players like You and him are should play more often and whenever You got a chance to play eachother not to play with others. Anyway I dont understand why You re so angry-cmon man-we got one basic thing-we like playing SC against humans-and also we like to compete. If You misunderstood tone of my post it was because of my "Tarzan" english... But, still my opinnion is: we dont need challenge system made for only top 5 players... So lets stop arguing-I got enough opportunities for that on court and in life I did not say that he cannot play lower ranked. Anyone can play anyone in the Myleague world. However, I did say that everyone should prioritise playing similar ranked opponents more often, especially if there are many players simultaneously wanting a game. It is not my invention. It is the general myleague rules. Read the rule section in myleague (any league not just Z-League). If you found a topic where I said he should not play lower ranked opponents (at all) then show it to me, I would gladely want to read it. [ September 23, 2003, 01:05 PM: Message edited by: zappsweden ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terif Posted September 24, 2003 Share Posted September 24, 2003 Zapp: This is not a personal Zapp & Terif issue During the last week each time you were constantly asking for a game. I explained you several times that I dont want to play you every day and that we can play again after October 1 = 12 days later from Friday. After a while this really annoyed me.... Then you asked again at Friday 19, where I told you the same at 10.43 am forum time: http://www.battlefront.com/cgi-bin/bbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=24;t=006401 Only 40 minutes later the challenge system had been activated (see first post this thread) and you challenged me to play you within the next 10 ! days or I would get penalized... So in my view it was something personal.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terif Posted September 24, 2003 Share Posted September 24, 2003 I had a long discussion with Zapp via ICQ. Since I really love playing SC, I first thought I will have to live with the new "Anti-Terif" Rule made by Zappsweden, but.... [ September 24, 2003, 09:24 AM: Message edited by: Terif ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terif Posted September 24, 2003 Share Posted September 24, 2003 ... after a night to sleep over it, I changed my mind. To give into his intentions and abuse of the administrator rights would be against all my principles. Zapp made clear that the new system will not be removed in the near future. It is his league, he makes the rules and he doesnt care about the vote of any ZL member. So I have no other choice than voting with my feets... Zapp badly wants the top spot in the League. He couldnt beat me on the battlefield, so he had to change the rules for his own advantage. Now he will get the top spot through his rule change. I dont know how much the "throne" (as he called it) is worth if gotten via rule changes... I dont have the intention to play again against Zapp and waste more of my time. Its my spare time (or better: sleeping time)that I sacrifices when playing and I will decide against who I play. So I take the consequence: I WITHDRAW FROM THE ZAPP-LEAGUE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terif Posted September 24, 2003 Share Posted September 24, 2003 Hmm, unfortunately it is not possible to withdraw from the league after Zapps rule change... but I will wait. Error message from the Z-League: ERROR You cannot withdraw when you have a formal challenge outstanding! You need to play Zappsweden or wait until after Wednesday, December 31 to withdraw. Copyright 2003, MyLeague.com/Case's Ladder, Inc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zappsweden Posted September 24, 2003 Author Share Posted September 24, 2003 Ok, Terif first gave me an personal deal that we could challenge each other once every 10-days. I changed the "days to complete challenge" to 24-days so that the system would not be a problem. When I pointed out that the 24-day system is even easier for him than the 10-day system he agree to accept the challenge system BUT he instantly made it clear "I will live with challenge system as long as it has at leist the 24-day period". That was another new ultimatum. He is not respectful or loyal, he wants to call the shots and put conditions as if we were negotiating a contract. Then he posted it on the forum. Now he changed his mind. I guess he could not stand accepting something he thought was less than perfect. [ September 24, 2003, 11:33 AM: Message edited by: zappsweden ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurt88 Posted September 24, 2003 Share Posted September 24, 2003 That's too bad Terif. I can understand your feelings since I've been following this discussions since I saw you guys 'arguing' in the opponents finder's forum. I don't know Zapp and I don't know you,never played any of you,but it seems to me he's pushing you. I hope you won't stop playing,we all need to play you to learn new stuff. I still hope you guys patch things up. [ September 24, 2003, 10:10 AM: Message edited by: kurt88 ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonheart Posted September 24, 2003 Share Posted September 24, 2003 Like two kids in the sand-pit quarrel for the shovel. It makes no difference who is rite here. Man.. it´s a game, it should be fun, there is no reason for endless discussion. What should new members or participants in SC games think when they read that :confused: :confused: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terif Posted September 24, 2003 Share Posted September 24, 2003 Zapp: SC was and is very important for me. It is not so easy to give up this important part of my life. So I first was temptated to accept your behaviour and rule changes. But now I had some time to think ábout it. SC is only a game. I am not willing to give up my principles because of a game. And after what happened it is even not much fun any more playing in the league... Time to move on and to use my time for more important things. I have no intention starting my own league like you accused me. I will play some fun games (but never again against you) from time to time, but thats it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blashy Posted September 25, 2003 Share Posted September 25, 2003 I'll tell you my opinion, if Curry made the PBEM league that "forces" me to play so often as in the Z league formula I drop out in a heart beat. I think it is set now that you have to be inactive for 3 months before you get removed and IMHO that is fine. There should not be a rush that you always have to play 1 match every week or 2 weeks OR that you have to accept a challenge or be forced a loss or whatever. I've asked 3 people for matches in the PBEM league, one has not answered so far, I'm not going around saying he should get a loss because he is not responding to the challenge. This is about fun, not competition, if you intend to make your league a weekly competitive event you should state this VERY clearly that only dedicated serious players who can commit 1-2 matches a week are allowed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zappsweden Posted September 25, 2003 Author Share Posted September 25, 2003 Originally posted by Blashy: I'll tell you my opinion, if Curry made the PBEM league that "forces" me to play so often as in the Z league formula I drop out in a heart beat. I think it is set now that you have to be inactive for 3 months before you get removed and IMHO that is fine. There should not be a rush that you always have to play 1 match every week or 2 weeks OR that you have to accept a challenge or be forced a loss or whatever. I've asked 3 people for matches in the PBEM league, one has not answered so far, I'm not going around saying he should get a loss because he is not responding to the challenge. This is about fun, not competition, if you intend to make your league a weekly competitive event you should state this VERY clearly that only dedicated serious players who can commit 1-2 matches a week are allowed. So, Blashy why do you talk about 1-2 weeks? The challenge syetem is on 24-day i.e same limit as inactivity in the league. The most frequent player (of all) could not cope with it. He has played at leist 6 games since the challenge system started so time was never the issue. The thing that eventually made Terif quit the league was that his pride forced him to back up his accusations. He could not try the challenge system and risk that it turned out working. That would mean he was wrong when he threatend and gave ultimatums. He even suggested that I got a special internal 10-day taylor made Zapp vs Terif challenge system. I explained that the 24-day limit of the challenge system was even easier for him than a 10-day system. I also said that I do not want any favours, charity and personal rules. I wanted a rule for the league not for mr Zappsweden. Obviously, he could only accept an offer that he made himself. PRIDE. [ September 25, 2003, 11:57 AM: Message edited by: zappsweden ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blashy Posted September 25, 2003 Share Posted September 25, 2003 Like I said, if the PBEM forced me to accept challenges, that would be another reason to quit. I don't care if the person with the #1 ranking wants to choose who he plays, its just a ranking of a game that we play to have fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon_j_rambo Posted September 25, 2003 Share Posted September 25, 2003 Blashy --- PBEM isn't TCP/IP. You wouldn't make it out of France against the big name players. Legend Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zappsweden Posted September 25, 2003 Author Share Posted September 25, 2003 Originally posted by Terif: When I play against you, I cant play against somebody else, so easy it is, therefore I told you we can play, but not every day (one game every 1-2 weeks is ok) and I need a break between our games. Especially since our games are not much fun any more: only exactly the same old strategy in order to win against me at all cost. If you make any minor mistake or I try a new strategy you surrender and want to start a new game immediately, thats really annoying. Winning at all cost? You mean "Winning at all cost by exploiting bugs in the system and not tell anyone about it instead developing entire strategies to exploit them fully"? or you mean "Winning at all cost by coming up with cookie-cutter winner moves and then when opponents catch up with the moves you call it boring play"? hint: those 2 ways of winning were not mine but Terifs way of doing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zappsweden Posted March 4, 2004 Author Share Posted March 4, 2004 Originally posted by Terif: I had a long discussion with Zapp via ICQ. Since I really love playing SC, I first thought I will have to live with the new "Anti-Terif" Rule made by Zappsweden, but.... NEWS! The Terif vs Zappsweden discussion now available at bookstores... No seriously, this is for all ppl who want to reaf the famous discussion prior to the DOW by Terif on Zappsweden. [ March 03, 2004, 08:57 PM: Message edited by: zappsweden ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zappsweden Posted March 4, 2004 Author Share Posted March 4, 2004 zappsweden 2003-09- 00:06 the challenge system wont be aborted at this early stage, sorry. Terif(SC) 2003-09- 00:07 everyone that posted voted against it and you want still keep it... Terif(SC) 2003-09- 00:08 I am just writing a reply and it is something personal, you only activated this system to force ME to play and nobody else Terif(SC) 2003-09- 00:09 I swore to myself that I will never accept a blackmail, this is not the same but very similar for me zappsweden 2003-09- 00:09 You do not have to reduce it to a personal level. See it rather on a league level. You are champ, I am one of the challengers. Terif(SC) 2003-09- 00:09 therefore I take this very personnel and therefore I react so extreme Terif(SC) 2003-09- 00:10 But noone wanted a challenge system, nor is there any need for such a system for SC Terif(SC) 2003-09- 00:11 It was only activated for your personnel advantage and because I refused to play you immediately and you had no priority in my play schedule zappsweden 2003-09- 00:11 we played 3 games since 21/8, hardly too much time consuming for a champ. I have also said it, I changed challenge to 24 days. If u think everyone will go out producing fake challenges you are just thinking the worst case scenario. Every player in the league is known. NO ONE can do trucky things without being revealed. zappsweden 2003-09- 00:11 tricky zappsweden 2003-09- 00:13 Theoretically, any champ could avoid a player (not saying someone has done it so far) unlimited time just playing once every 24 days. zappsweden 2003-09- 00:13 So every system has a risk. Terif(SC) 2003-09- 00:13 You know there were and will be several players that loose interest in SC. There is no way to penalize them if they think it would be fun to challenge some players before they leave. Thats the worst case and may never happen, but still it can zappsweden 2003-09- 00:14 challenge is only for top-5 players. They are pretty well known by this stage. No black boxes, no surprises. zappsweden 2003-09- 00:16 There is no voting about the ruleset options, only personal views. Terif(SC) 2003-09- 00:22 Playing SC is fun and I dont want it to be a duty. Besides after a while it simply doesnt make fun playing the same person again and again if the games are pretty much the same and nothing changes... If it doesnt make fun any more to play a specific person, then I need a break to recover. After a while it will make fun again, but I cant find the fun again if I have to play constantly again and again. As you also mentioned, there are phases where you play intensily and phases where you have to recover. zappsweden 2003-09- 00:23 so, that theoretically means I could wait 100 days or 1000 days to play you. I aint gonna beg for games. In the current system, the champ can play once in 24 days and also play whoever. Terif(SC) 2003-09- 00:24 In the challenge system I cant see any advantage: it is only useful to force someone to play against his will. And this is SC with a small community where you really dont need someone to force to play.. zappsweden 2003-09- 00:24 One challenge in 24 days is not too much. If u cannot cope with taking challenges on that basis you are not defending the crown. zappsweden 2003-09- 00:24 So, basically you would rather prefer that the champ can avoid someone unlimited time? zappsweden 2003-09- 00:25 Theoretically zappsweden 2003-09- 00:26 it is not a question of right or wrong. It is the RULES. Any player in the league stick to the rules even if that player has an own opinion on a optimum ruleset. Terif(SC) 2003-09- 00:26 You know we sometimes played 3 games or more in a row, we also had some weeks break sometimes. If I dont want to play then I dont want to be forced to play. You know you always got your chance to get the "Crown" zappsweden 2003-09- 00:27 yes, but i do wanna know when. Waiting for weeks for a "shot at the title" is not my style. The champ cannot call the shots anymore. The champ is called out. Fair and simple. Honour. In this system no one can duck anyone. Terif(SC) 2003-09- 00:27 you always talk about the RULES... there are many optional rules and it is up to the SC community which one will be used and which ones not zappsweden 2003-09- 00:27 which ones comes to mind? Terif(SC) 2003-09- 00:28 you cant hide behind the myleague rules.. you activated or deactivated them zappsweden 2003-09- 00:28 they are default activated. Challenge is part of the starting rules. Terif(SC) 2003-09- 00:28 You want to know when ? I told you last week all the time when we can play again: after October 1 !! zappsweden 2003-09- 00:29 You may feel you are forced to play, in the other system challengers feel they are forced to wait. zappsweden 2003-09- 00:29 Why should the champ decide exactly who and when to play? zappsweden 2003-09- 00:30 the challenges cannot be removed unfortunately. They are 24 days now but started at 10. zappsweden 2003-09- 00:31 Why do u say hide behind myleague rules??? Terif(SC) 2003-09- 00:31 You know: in SC a player posts when he wants to play. It is not seldom that you have to wait zappsweden 2003-09- 00:32 It sounds as if this only concerns you. If rambo, me and anyone else becomes chap we follow the same rules. zappsweden 2003-09- 00:33 The fact is still, if anyone in the top-5 is in an intense period they should be able to post a challenge and be granted a shot. Once in 24 days aint much. Terif(SC) 2003-09- 00:33 This only concerns me, cause the rule was only made against me.. zappsweden 2003-09- 00:34 That is because there is only one champ- Terif(SC) 2003-09- 00:39 You had many many chances to beat me and if you had not activated the challenge system, you surely would have had many more in the future. Nobody else played so much like I did and most of the games against the challengers. Since it is not possible to remove the challenge, we can play it after October 1. But then I hope you will deactivate the challenge system or it will really be the last game we played. I play SC because it is fun and it should stay this way. Terif(SC) 2003-09- 00:40 You should know that you will get enough games against me, I proofed it in the past zappsweden 2003-09- 00:41 Yes, but the games before 22/8 (i.e before spain gambit invention) were not me forcing you to play. Terif(SC) 2003-09- 00:41 But I also want the possibility to make a break for some weeks... I never abused it to avoid a challenge, nor will I zappsweden 2003-09- 00:41 after spain gambit, game rate soured to 3 games in one month. zappsweden 2003-09- 00:43 I never said you avoided anyone. That is why there should be no problem for you completing a game. Also, the 24-day limit is same for games and challenges now. I bet you wont be inactive 24 days, you have not been that before Terif(SC) 2003-09- 00:43 Yes because I got bored. I tried something new and you surrendered nearly immediately, only the standard game is boring after a while if played against the same person...as I mentioned: we could have loaded also a save from a game before, would have been exactly the same situation... zappsweden 2003-09- 00:44 yep, but you see. If u wanna play for fun, you have no right to claim the throne. Throne is prestige, honour and competition. Do not mix the things. zappsweden 2003-09- 00:45 I mean you cannot start looking at the #1 spot as being "rightfully mine, I deserved it" so to speak. Terif(SC) 2003-09- 00:46 With the 24 days you are right, it is no problem to play some games within this period, but it can be difficult to find a certain person within this time frame to play with. I see the danger that both cant find each other until some days before the deadline, then the game takes to long and bump: penalty for both. For the challenger this is not important since he is lower ranked anyway... zappsweden 2003-09- 00:47 sending mails work fine for setting up appointments. If a challenger makes a challenge and appears unavailable he is punished. Terif(SC) 2003-09- 00:48 yes, but the challenged one will be punished too zappsweden 2003-09- 00:48 It is all in the forum. Ppl see it easily. As I said, the top-5 players are well known. There is no moron that would join Z-League, working his way to top-5 and then fake challenger. Who doe sthat for a living? zappsweden 2003-09- 00:49 Not necessarily. The challenger can be excluded from the league i.e the challenge then disappears (i guess). Let us not hope we will be in that position though. Terif(SC) 2003-09- 00:49 A challenge system is simply not needed and has only disadvantages zappsweden 2003-09- 00:51 Maybe, maybe not. It is beside the point. If ppl start ignoring the rules we have a problem. zappsweden 2003-09- 00:52 There is no evidence the system will cause problems. Terif(SC) 2003-09- 00:52 but you usually only see it after the penalty took place, then you can exclude him, but this doesnt remove the penalty I guess... Terif(SC) 2003-09- 00:52 Just have a look in the forum.. it causes problems, especially with me zappsweden 2003-09- 00:52 nope, it will be posted on the forum like "where the hell are you? you have challenged me and isappeared". It will work out i am sure. zappsweden 2003-09- 00:53 The challenge disppears certainly. zappsweden 2003-09- 00:54 We cannot have player putting ultimatums everytime some rule works against them. zappsweden 2003-09- 00:54 Experience and time will tell. Terif(SC) 2003-09- 00:56 As I said: you only need to challenge someone if you cant find him, otherwise you would have played the normal way. But If you cant find someone, then he is probably away or busy. Its simply bad style to force someone to play when he has no time or dont want to play at the moment the challenger want to. SC is a game and we all play because it makes fun. Otherwise we wouldnt play zappsweden 2003-09- 00:58 Without challenge system there is no guaranti to play the higher ranked players. As happened recently, I have tried get title shots and only got 3 games in one month. zappsweden 2003-09- 00:58 So, why should the champion call the shots? Terif(SC) 2003-09- 00:59 you had much more "shots" than everyone else. zappsweden 2003-09- 01:00 That is history. You cannot bring old games to the table. Terif(SC) 2003-09- 01:00 call the shots: its also the spare time of the champion he sacrifices to play a game, instead of sleeping, working or doing other things zappsweden 2003-09- 01:01 Hmm, you played 30 games in the last month? zappsweden 2003-09- 01:01 so, you should not have any problems... zappsweden 2003-09- 01:01 Hmm, quite funny. the most frequent player complains about a system that force him to play. zappsweden 2003-09- 01:02 (btw u had 28 games in a month) zappsweden 2003-09- 01:03 yes you offered me a 10-day system as a peace offer. Now you do not even accept a 24-day system. I think it is just pride... zappsweden 2003-09- 01:03 yet (not yes) zappsweden 2003-09- 01:03 yet you ... Terif(SC) 2003-09- 01:03 seems you dont understand: It is no fun playing only against the same player again and again, day for day. Its a bit too much repetition zappsweden 2003-09- 01:04 so that means without this system i could wait 3-4 weeks or even more before playing you again??? zappsweden 2003-09- 01:04 I mean, nothing prevents it. Terif(SC) 2003-09- 01:05 Yes, could be, but then I am pretty sure we would play 3-6 games again in a row... zappsweden 2003-09- 01:05 yes, but I cannot stand be put on hold for indefinate time. I want something to aim at, not somethng to wait for. zappsweden 2003-09- 01:07 If u (and others) cannot accept something to be less than perfect then I am afraid this league is heading for trouble. Terif(SC) 2003-09- 01:09 ok, I think you are right with the pride (it WAS a personnel thing after you challenged me ~40 minutes after I refused to play you immediately when you asked.. I will jump over my shadow (or how this expression works in english.. ), I will live with the challenge system as long as it has at least the 24 days period. zappsweden 2003-09- 01:09 sounds great! Terif(SC) 2003-09- 01:12 Dont be happy to early Since I hate it to be forced to play, If someone challenges me, he wont get a game until a week or so before the deadline....Only a little measure, so this wont happen too often Terif(SC) 2003-09- 01:13 I am pretty sure you will get more games/shots without challenging me.. zappsweden 2003-09- 01:13 it is a matter of principle. It is not just about us. Anyone is free to use it. zappsweden 2003-09- 01:15 I am available in late afternoons and evenings this week PLUS whole weekend. zappsweden 2003-09- 01:16 gotta sleep, cu. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zappsweden Posted March 4, 2004 Author Share Posted March 4, 2004 Originally posted by Terif: ... after a night to sleep over it, I changed my mind. To give into his intentions and abuse of the administrator rights would be against all my principles. Zapp made clear that the new system will not be removed in the near future. It is his league, he makes the rules and he doesnt care about the vote of any ZL member. So I have no other choice than voting with my feets... Zapp badly wants the top spot in the League. He couldnt beat me on the battlefield, so he had to change the rules for his own advantage. Now he will get the top spot through his rule change. I dont know how much the "throne" (as he called it) is worth if gotten via rule changes... I dont have the intention to play again against Zapp and waste more of my time. Its my spare time (or better: sleeping time)that I sacrifices when playing and I will decide against who I play. So I take the consequence: I WITHDRAW FROM THE ZAPP-LEAGUE The DOW. [ March 03, 2004, 08:58 PM: Message edited by: zappsweden ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Les the Sarge 9-1 Posted March 4, 2004 Share Posted March 4, 2004 Zapp, two things, your name is connected with people we know play the game well. But do you really also want it connected with this stupidity? The horse is dead man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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