Which side has the advantage . Your opinion.

[lcm1947]

Yeah, yeah I know this has been done to death but there are new guys and even not so new guys that I would like to discuss this with. I know " do a search" but you know looking back doing a search is boring and lonely and no fun at all so I thought I'd try to get some discussion on this subject from those that are currently playing it. Now true I have been playing it for the past 3 years but never was really into it until now. Yes Pbem's are so so so much more fun and exciting then playing against the computer I can't believe it. And here I thought I was having the time of my life these past years playing just against the computer. Anyway, back to the topic. I normally and I should actually say always play the American's but I am currently playing a game that I am the Jerry's and man they are kick ass!. I can't get over how much tougher and accurate they seem then the American side. Any comments on this? Now I know a lot will say that it's evenly matched but man I don't believe it for a second. :mad: Now I could be wrong and that's not the point of this post anyway I just was hoping for info and suggestions plus I think it would be interesting and would like to hear what others think. Hopefully there's enough guys still playing this game and not CMBB to have a good discussion and would like to express their views before I declare that BFC is unfair and like the German's the best.

A final note. This is your opinion the heck with what others think so don't hesitate to jump in. If anybody gets rude we'll all jump on him and make fun and sport of him.

[ April 20, 2003, 10:54 AM: Message edited by: lcm1947 ]

[JasonC]

Yes, Germans are better, point for point.

Infantry is very strong in CMBO. The Germans have the best infantry types, with the most automatic weapons, and the greatest number of choices of infantry type. Their 2 LMG types are all around monsters, while the SMG heavy types are more ammo efficient and do the cover interiors you need infantry to do. Heavy weapons can do the open ground areas. German infantry AT is much better than Allied, as well.

Heavy weapons aren't nearly as important in CMBO as in CMBB. But the Germans are better off in all respects except for foot speed. Their 81mm hit harder, their HMGs hit much harder and have more ammo than their allied counterparts. They have many more light guns, including lots of cheap ones that are good at what they do. They also have no problem buying guns that kill just about any tank they face. And they have 150mm sIGs, the best on map infantry killer.

Armor doesn't matter as much in CMBO as in CMBB, because HE loads tend to be limited and MGs don't do much in infantry. Winning the infantry war is more important. But the single most important thing in the armor war is still thick front plates, and the Germans have more of them.

They are also more afforable - Hetzers and Jagds e.g. For anti infantry work, the Germans have specialized vehicles like the SPW-251/9 (doesn't need armor points), the StuH, or for the risk takers among us, the Hummel. Tigers do both anti infantry and anti tank, at least against the vanilla 75mm and light allied types. A Tiger I costs about what an E8 Sherman does and fights a lot better.

The only thing the Americans to outright better at is artillery. Their reactive 155 module in particular is their best weapon in the infantry war. But the Germans are within spitting distance, with their cheap 120s particularly useful, as long as the enemy isn't too dug in. The Germans rely less on FOs, though, with SMG infantry doing cover interiors and direct fire HE from guns or armor doing ranged shooting.

American tanks are good at killing infantry, but you have to win the armor war for that to matter. And they aren't good at that. The TDs are OK shooters (the Jackson in particular), but not well protected. American infantry is reasonably robust, fights OK at range (but runs low on ammo doing it), and their support weapons are decent speed. The towed guns are limited as to variety and only the expensive ones do what they are suppose to. They have the gamey cheap HMC horde, but that gets old very quickly.

The Brits are better, if you cherry pick them, worse if you don't. Churchills are thick. 17 pdrs actually kill things, though none has a survivable platform, making them like the better US TDs. Paras have enough SMGs to fight German infantry in close. Wasps are wasps. And while not as quick, Brit medium arty is inexpensive per module (4.5 and 5.5 inch). The 3 inch on map mortar has far more ammo and hitting power than other people's mortars.

On the downside, the vanilla infantry is poorly armed, and the vanilla 75mm Shermans and Cromwells both undergunned and underarmored, and the 25 pdr ROF is so slow as to be practically useless. So if you take a realistic rather than cherry picked Brit force you are at a disadvantage.

You can get balanced fights without cherry picking silliness if you give the Allies one armor category higher than the Germans. That is, combined arms against infantry force type, or armor against combined arms. Then at least the Allies have numbers to use against quality in the armor war. And their tanks have good anti-infantry ability, which can even the rest of the fight if they do OK in the armor war.

One man's opinion...

[ April 20, 2003, 01:03 PM: Message edited by: JasonC ]

[Elmar Bijlsma]

For shame JasonC! A knowlegable man like you reviewing the Brits and not mentioning the 95mm armed Cromwell or Churchill. A bit inaccurate at long range but deadly versus the heaviest armor closer in. And eats infantry for breakfast.

Agree with you tough. The Yanks come of worst in the game, the Brits make it a close run thing for the top spot, but as you point out this depends on you properly assembling your force.

[lcm1947]

Hey thanks guys that is exacting what I was looking for. I hadn't even hoped you would jump in JasonC but I sure appreciate your, as usual, knownledge and expertise. So looks like I'll be using the Brit's when playing the Allied's in the future but I sure will have to do a lot of modding as I don't think I have anything modded of theirs. Plus they talk funny. So JasonC could you give me an example of what would be a good overall force for the British say in a 1500 and 2000 pt. game? Say for a combined battle.

[JasonC]

You want instructions in how to be completely gamey? lol. It has nothing to do with history, you know, when you cherry pick items. A 1500 pt gamey Brit force for a CA ME might look like this -

2 Churchill 8s

1 Sherman Firefly or Challenger

2 companies of Paras

1 Wasp

2 4.5 inch FOs

The Churchills bounce AP and toss HE at German infantry. Their HEAT will kill critters if it hits them, which it will at 500m or so. The Firefly stays back out of sight and hunts German armor. You can use a Challenger instead if you like.

The wasp does what wasp's do - goes and burns things, in the second half of the game only (after AT stuff gets scarce). The FOs smash woods interiors while the Churchills smash buildings.

The Paras scout, hail fire guns with their pipsqueak mortars, push PIATs forward to restrict any remaining German armor, and clear the HE rubble with their SMGs.

If your HE from the Churchills and FOs does its job, 6 SMG-heavy platoons will be more infantry than his infantry survivors can handle. If you find a German SMG hive that still looks nasty, make toast.

[moneymaxx]

So LCM1947 that's what I have to fight against in our next battle .

But seriously, I played with a similar setup and it was quite an easy battle. Someone informed me though, that mixing paras and tanks is sometimes considered gamey by some players (not me). So if you want to be sure not to be called ´gamey´ take 2 or 3 rifle companies instead.

If you fight again against me, buy the paras !!

[Ron]

At first blush yes the Germans seem to have all the advantages, and yes when I first began playing I was enamoured with them and their 'toys'. However after playing the Allies more and learning how to utilize their forces to their advantage and not the Germans, I don't think either side has any overriding advantage, enough to predetermine the outcome.

In a typical QB the German player will have less to spend on Armour, however they can make up for that with a plethora of 20mm/75mm light vehicles. And of course they have a greater variety of Infantry types to play around with. Usually being able to purchase more Infantry than the Allied player, if not in men then in Squads/Platoons, ie the VolksGrenadiers.

In your hypothetical 2000pt QB a *power* German player could select something like this:

1 VG Battalion(w/8 HMGS, 1 75mm FO, 1 81mm FO)

1 120mm FO

2 20mm HTs

3 75mm ACs

2 Panthers or 3 JgPzs or 4 Hetzers

In response a *power* Brit player could select this:

2 Para Coys(w/Piats and 2" Mortars)

1 Para Platoon(w/Piats and 2" Mortars)

3 4.2" FOs

2 6pdr AT guns

2 White Scout Cars

2 Daimlers

2 Cromwells (95mm or 75mm)

2 Challengers or 2 Fireflys

Seems like an even match up to me and I would have no problem with either side, clearly seeing no advantage to either IMO. I don't think it is wise to try and break things down into an 'Infantry' war and/or 'Armour' war, not if you want to do well anyways. Try to think of your force in 'total' using each piece in concert with the other, maximizing your advantages to your enemy's weaknesses.

What's weak about the above German force? The VG squads are brittle and have little 'staying' power,ie they only have 8 men. The AFVs are all slow, either turret speed and/or turning speed, making them vulnerable to a fluid situation. The JgPzs and Hetzers are very weak in the anti-infantry area. The HTs and ACs are vulnerable to just about everything, even 2" Mortars. The Brit force selected has more than enough to exploit this.

Knowing the technical aspects of your force and your opponents is necessary, but it isn't enough. You still have to 'put it all together' during the battle. That means avoiding unfavourable situations that will work against you and creating situations that will favour you. That's something you learn through playing, lots. Good Luck!

Ron

[Cpl Carrot]

Have to agree with you Ron. Seems to be the players ability to mesh all the forces together rather than one side being better than the other that decides the battle. That being said often terrain does play a large part as maps are never 'even'.

In fact I lose just as often playing as the Brits as I do with the Americans or Germans.

Perhaps I might do better if I played with SMG heavy troops and Hetzers and the like but doubt it.

[Silvio Manuel]

I like playing w/ Green troops, in dawn/dusk (and/or overcast), and Short-75 rules. It's realistic-like. Esp. dawn/dusk which helps to mute the borg-spotting a bit, in that full ID's are much harder.

Green Allied 75mm tanks will have it tough against even StuGs and Panzer IV's, at range at least.

[lcm1947]

I appreciate the response JasonC but didn't realize that it would be considered gamey so looks like I won't be able to use them but thanks for the reply to my question never the less. Also appreciate the other info from you guys. I guess the best way for me to decide for myself if the German's are more favored would be for me to play them a couple of times myself. Maybe I'd feel better about it then or maybe not. I just really am having a hard time figuring out how to win when the German armor is just so much better and once my armor is knocked out they ( German Armor ) just damn well does what it pleases to my infantry that's left and those crappy bazooko's are just about worthless unless it's a rare Hail Mary shot or extremely close and the German's normally don't allow you to do that. We did win the war, right? i'm surprised we did. What's this short-75 rule thing? and where could I find something on it?

[Ron]

Exactly what German tanks are you having trouble with lcm1947? Can you describe the situation(s) where you lost all your armour? What sorts of tactics have you tried to defeat the German armour?

Ron

[lcm1947]

Well, basicly the German armor overall. It's not really just a particular tank they all seem to have better armor, shoot straigher and have more powerful shells against infantry and tanks both although I realize that there are several that aren't so hot like the Stug's and Hetzers so I guess I'm bitching about the Panthers and above. As I just wrote this though I do realize that this was true in real life actually anyway so maybe I do need to try to do a better job myself in handling tanks and not just blame it on the crappy American tanks . As far as the situation it's in open or semi-open terrain where they have the big advantage. They don't seem to miss often whereas the Sherman's do a lot. Again, maybe this was also true to life and I'll have to figure out a way to cope with it. And that's the reason I started this post and not just to cry about being beat - all the damn time. I didn't mean this post to turn out sounding like sour grapes or belly aching. I was actually trying to get some ideas on how to cope against them.

[Cpl Carrot]

Well in my defence I have never anything heavier than a Pz IV or a StuG. I don't even use Hetzers!

That being said, the times I have shot little holes in your Shermies was when they were not paying attention.

The first time you were busy trying to shoot up my infantry and either got hit by a Shreck or my STuG waiting for that very oppotunity.

The second time in the fog you tried to pull off a bold flanking manouver. Good idea - but you did not know what was waiting for you when you did it. That being said I was also lucky.

I must say that the Germans have it a little easier in the tank department beacuse their tanks are a better alround tank. The Sherman either has to be infantry or tank killer, never really both.

Probably does not help you much, but I will answer any specific question you do have have, either here or in emails

[Ron]

Originally posted by lcm1947:

Well, basicly the German armor overall. It's not really just a particular tank they all seem to have better armor, shoot straigher and have more powerful shells against infantry and tanks both although I realize that there are several that aren't so hot like the Stug's and Hetzers so I guess I'm bitching about the Panthers and above. As I just wrote this though I do realize that this was true in real life actually anyway so maybe I do need to try to do a better job myself in handling tanks and not just blame it on the crappy American tanks . As far as the situation it's in open or semi-open terrain where they have the big advantage. They don't seem to miss often whereas the Sherman's do a lot. Again, maybe this was also true to life and I'll have to figure out a way to cope with it. And that's the reason I started this post and not just to cry about being beat - all the damn time. I didn't mean this post to turn out sounding like sour grapes or belly aching. I was actually trying to get some ideas on how to cope against them.

The Allied 75 has better HE capabilty than any of the German 75s, including the Panther's. If you play American and are having trouble with the Panther then you have to realize you cannot take it on frontally, even with 76mm Shermans and Hellcats, and expect to have favourable exchanges. Tungsten will penetrate the Panther but it isn't always used when you want it to be.

With the above 2000 pt example a sample US force could look like this:

1 Rifle Coy(w/3 MGs, 3 60mm Mortars & 3 Bazookas)

4 Rifle Platoons

1 81mm FO

1 105mm FO

4 Hellcats

2 HMCs

2 Greyhounds

The Hellcats and HMCs can be substituted for Shermans(75 and 76) as your preference goes. Again that is more than adequate to face the German force given above.

The Panther is vulnerable on its sides and rear and has a slow turret. The Hellcat is a 'speed demon' and can easily outmanuever the Panther. If cover is relatively sparse then use smoke to create some.

As far as outshooting goes, in CMBO the two main factors in gun accuracy are muzzle velocity and target size. Both the Panther and Tiger are huge targets, because optics isn't modelled in CMBO you will find smaller Allied vehicles with a high velocity gun will actually hit more often. It has been my experience that long range gunnery favors Allied AFVs such as the Hellcat and Firefly more so than the Panther and Tiger. Hope that helps.

Ron

[ April 22, 2003, 12:19 AM: Message edited by: Ron ]

[Dandelion]

Lee,

This I find is one of the finest qualities of CMBO - the reflection of squad weaponry composition and use in combat.

Most German squads appearing in scenarios are of the type dominated by rifles. At ranges of 250 and beyond, all rifles (except of course the M1 Carbine) perform identically, whereas the Lee Enfield and M1 Garand will outgun the 98k at shorter ranges.

The MP40 is portrayed as superior to both Thompson and Sten in CMBO, even considerably so. Squads with liberal amounts of them - Füsiliere, VG SMG, Gebirgsjäger (which is quite unhistorical btw), Fallschirmjäger and Sturm - have no serious competitors in point blank firepower.

There's of course the MP44. Above all it grants the owning squads a boost of firepower at ranges 250 and below, closing a gap so to speak.

The MG42 is effective all the way up to 300 meters (and not ineffective beyond) and much superior to Bren and BAR.

With this setup the Germans are capable of delivering credible firepower at any range really.

But in my humble opinion, they are far from generally superior.

The squads most frequently appearing in scenarios (as they constituted a vast majority of the German land forces) are rifle, motorised, pioniere and volksgrenadier.

Of these, the pioniere have abysmal firepower, quite unable to face any allied squad one on one.

The rifle (Heer or SS) squads are on par with their UK counterparts but much inferior to their US such and the exact same is true for volksgrenadiere (except SMG squads and Füsiliere).

Only the motorised squads slightly excel the US squads (in the case of SS motorised, they excel even US airborne).

So normally, speaking infantry, in a US vs German scenario you will in fact be inferior as German, not superior, unless you are actually fielding motorised SS or Paras.

The Americans increase firepower partly by having more men to each squad and partly by doubling the amount of machineguns, there being 24(!) of them to a battalion as compared to the 12 of a German equivalent. They also use 9 instead of (the German) 6 mortars per battalion. While the German 81mm packs more punch than the US 60mm, it is anyones pick if this outweighs the mobility handicap. Personally, I don't feel it does. Obviously the Germans thought it did.

Of course, all of this creates more rapid munitions depletion, as has already been mentioned. But as depletion is merely the delivery of firepower onto the head of the enemy, it is generally better to be able to do this quicker than your enemy if efficiency can be maintained equal to his slower rate of delivery anyway - which it can in this case.

The British have a much tougher situation. But they do have their knee mortars at the scale of 12 per battalion. In my humble opinion they offer their platoons very valuable edge with capacity to surpress (they'll have to use it quickly, as they have very little ammo and extreme rate of fire as we all know).

All of this speaking strictly infantry of course.

Regards

Dandelion

[Ghost of the 90th]

Which side has the advantage?

Well...this depends on a couple of things, most importantly the date played. At different times, different equip is available, this greatly affects the balance of the game.

For instance the VG SMG are not available until Nov 44 and American VT Arty is not available before Nov either. Brit VT arty is not available until sometime in 45.

Late war (anytime in 45) the allied tanks and ATG's will likely have more "t" rounds available to them and this can make a huge difference when going up against the Big Cats. A nice little 6lb with 6 or so "t" rnds can pop a Tiger frontally from pretty far out. 54 point ATG killing a 178 point behmoth is a quick way to even things out quickly.

Seems here that people believe in the points to cost ratios that the Germans have the advantage.

This maybe so, but if you want to even things up pretty quick buy some VT arty. VT, when used right (75% of people dont use it correctly)can tilt the overall game toward the allies in a big way.

Another very sweet piece of the allied arsenal that has been left off some of the Uber/Gamey lists posted here is the British 3"inch On Board Mortar. That is a powerful weapon and the amount of ammo you get is usually 3 times what an American or German mortar crew get.

Late war German inf also rule, because their Fausts have ranges up to 100 meters! So look out late war with Allied AFV's keep em away from Germ inf!

When VT is in the mix I would give the edge to the Allies. Otherwise the Germans.

[Silvio Manuel]

Originally posted by Ghost of the 90th:

Seems here that people believe in the points to cost ratios that the Germans have the advantage.This maybe so, but if you want to even things up pretty quick buy some VT arty. VT, when used right (75% of people dont use it correctly)can tilt the overall game toward the allies in a big way.

How do ppl use VT arty incorrectly?

[lcm1947]

Well thanks everyone for some interesting comments, facts and tips. I surely appreciate them because as I said I'm just now getting into Pbem's big time and want to be able to hold my own against my more knowledgeble and experienced opponents. Ok so now what about the fact that most games seem to be played in little or moderate trees and you are faced with a German heavy or heavies 400 or greater distance away on high ground that dominates the map and flags and the map is so small that you cannot flank or get behind him? Any thoughts on that or is it just a lost cause so surrender? I actually have a game going on right now that is exactly that way and I am powerless to do anything. Plus at this point I have no tanks left and no arty not that I had any arty to begin with in this scenario. My opponent has one Panther and 2 Panzer IV's left. I think I know the answer but thought I'd ask. Also even if I had tanks I don't see being able to do anything other then try and most probably just get the tanks knocked out again and then I'm back with infantry and 2 crappy bazooka's that don't have any range to speak of against the German armor anyway. No contest. I guess this is the frustrating part that you just can't win against the German armor in certain terrain and or maps situations.

[Ghost of the 90th]

lcm1947,

The mistake you, and many make in CMBO is they become enamored with armor. They think they can't do anything without it. If you want to dominate in CMBO master inf and Arty. Armor is nice but if you consistently want to win, master inf and arty.

And when taking on the Germ armor just dont crest the hill, blast and pray for a kill from 1000 meters. You will get spanked as the allies. Set them up for side shots..smoke them and flank em..they have slow turrets. Germ armor is superior head to head at range..you need to develop different strategies for killing them. Germ armor verse Allied generally just keep em hull down and deal doom. Good allied opponents know how to overcome this.

[Dandelion]

Tricky one Lee. Sounds like time to disengage and extract. Not even if you did have Shermans left would it have been advisable to actually duel with Panthers frontally.

He's just laagering on the hill? No way of luring him down then? Couldn't crawl up to the Flag area and seize it under his nose, forcing him to engage? One can crawl undetected quite close to the enemy, especially buttoned up armour, and especially with small teams such as antitank teams.

Regards

Dandelion

[Dandelion]

...also, I'd like to chime in on the "how do ppl use VT incorrectly" question above.

[lcm1947]

I hear what you are saying Ghost and I do appreciate the advice but it's pretty hard to do what you are saying although I am trying to learn new tactic's hence this post. Everyone mentions how slow the German turrerts are but from what I see is true I may get the first shot off but his turrert is still fast enough to turn and get a shot off before my tank shots a second time. And his normally doesn't miss. At least that's what I'm seeing or at least it feels like it because it' true most of the time. And Dandelion the map we are playing on is his. I mean no room to flank him no way I can sneak under his infantry and or armor. No he's got me. So I will surrender especailly after just seeing I only have one Bazooka left. Did I mention how crappy those Bazooka teams are by the way? I did try buttoning him up but he doesn't seem to want to. Gamey I think. As far as getting him to come down I don't think that will happen. He's a very good player and wouldn't fall for that not when all he's got to do is sit there and let his infantry take the flags while still being covered by the armor. Anyway, thanks for the info and I have learned some stuff. Don't play the American's.

[Dandelion]

Lee,

Instead of stopping playing Americans, you should play some scenarios Pbem

I reason that historical scenarios will (try to) depict historical situations, and historically, you'd probably not be ordered to attack a flag dominated by a nearby hill defended by german armour.

Unless you play Brit.

Brits are at the sad end of fate at all times. That's why they are so loveable. I've tried them, because I so want them to win, but it's quite a challenge. Infantry firepower is the worst in the game. Historical scenarios don't help, as the British high command somewhat resembled your average gathering of patients at a geriatric clinic and will perpetually come up with plans even worse than a really really really bad QB.

So do play Americans, in historical scenarios. You'll love it.

Regards

Dandelion

[Beta1]

yeah the standard brit infantry are rather poor but thats no reason to rule them out. As previously pointed out the 3" mortars have massive ammo loads and the PIAT is a superior weapon to the bazooka. When playing as brits I rarely run into the "what the hell do I do agasint that cat" problem. You either PIAT it, or avoid it. If you want to leave you tiger/panther/whatever out in the open shooting at me I'm quite happy to drop smoke on it or just bugger off somewhere else on the map.

Anyway the americans dont have anything as good as a firefly for killing cats, and the brit 6pdr at vet level almost always gets a coupe of T rounds, the 17pdr kills anything with or without T. Compared to this the american guns are crap - the 56mm is lucky to kill any decent axis tank. The Daimler is another brilliant weapon,very fast, very cheap and with a mean 40mm AT gun. The big fat churchills are almost indestructable if hull down.

And the medium arty is good too - the 3.5-4.5" guns are cheap and come with plenty of ammo.

Sure the germans and americans have plenty of toys but the brits can easily take the germans on. You just have to play them right.

[Big Ron]

Dandelion,

I'm currently playing as the Brits (because I am one) in an 500 point axis attack in which my opponent brought a Jagdpanther and I've got a vanilla Sherman and 2 x 6 pdrs. His big cat is dead, his infantry scattered and I'm going to win. Permission to bask in the glory?