SC2 Idea - Spanish Mobilization

[Edwin P.]

In many games the Axis player will launch a wave of conquests - Norway , Sweden, and Vichy France yet the Spanish OB remains the same. Even if five axis units are massed along the Spanish border the mix and location of the Spanish Army does not change.

If Franco felt that Spain was next on the Axis list would he have mobilized additional forces and repositioned his units to better defend the honor of Spain? I think so.

The question remains - what would be the best way to reflect his reaction in a future version of SC?

Perhaps

1. Create a Spanish mobilization factor that once triggered allows Spain to stockpile and use MPPs. Example: Vichy and Sweden falls to the Axis. The Spanish AI government mobilizes for war and starts to earn MPPs which it may use to purchase additional units or reinforce damaged Spanish units. The Spanish AI can also move its units and they can entrench.

Example:

Spanish Mobilization

Conquest of Sweden 30% + (1 to 20)

Conquest of Vichy France 30% + (1 to 20)

Conquest of Switzerland 20%

Per Axis unit (army, corps, armor) on the Spanish Border +5%

Naturally there should be a pop-up that announces that Spain is preparing for the defense of the nation when this mobilization factor is triggered as such a mobilization would be front page news in the papers of the day.

I feel that such a change would improve the game without substantially altering the game balance of the two sides.

As for the Spanish AI it should probably be limited to producing Corps for the first ten turns after mobilization as the Franco would be rushing to field units in the shortest amount of time. Once Germany DOW Russia Spain should halt its mobilization if it has not been attacked.

2. Perhaps allow Germany to offer Spain Control of German Algeria. Such a offer may convince Franco to join the Axis (5%). Naturally, if Italy conquered Vichy France it would never agree to give Spain Algeria.

in this option the Axis player has to balance the "certain" loss of production from Algeria against the "possible" MPP gain from Franco's Spain joining the Axis. A calculated risk.

3. Perhaps 4 levels of Spanish Mobilization

Level 1: 0% to 90% - No Effect

Level 2: 91% to 99% - Spain Shares intelligence with Allies, Allies can see all German units that Spanish units can spot.

Level 3: 100% to 120% - Spain mobilizes for war. Spain gains a bonus Franco HQ unit.

Level 4: 121%+ = Spain Joins Allies

Spanish Mobilization level is affected by Axis conquests/DOW on Sweden, Vichy France, Switzerland, Portugal and number of Axis troops along Spain's border. Spanish Mobilization chance is reduced by Allied attack on Low Countries or Ireland or Denmark.

[ November 23, 2003, 07:12 PM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

[jon_j_rambo]

Bottom Line is simple: The Taco Beaners get no respect. No Leader, no HQ, no Supply, no Nothing. Terif was the first to exploit our Spainish brothers.

I cried out for American respect, where are the Chacanos?

[well-dressed gentleman]

Ed's comment can apply to any minor or major

country menaced by its neighbors. Supply

rules are especially frustrating, because

you'd think fuel and ammo would be plentiful

at the outset of a defensive war. Terif's

allied Spain gambit might have a counter if

only the axis could get better supplies there.

The Finns should also enjoy a supply advantage

against the USSR, as they were better adapted

to the arctic weather conditions.

[Edwin P.]

Just a note to say that by adding in reactions such as listed above some non-historical actions might be deterred;

ie It reduces that chance of the Axis attacking Switzerland as such an action would increase the chance for a Spanish Mobilization.

ie If the Axis attacked Norway + Switzerland OR Spain + Vichy France there should be a risk that Sweden will mobilize its armed forces - ie 2 extra Corps from the Swedish Army Reserve, units begin to entrench, etc. Sweden cuts off supply of Iron Ore to Germany (Germany loses 10MPP per turn)

Now the question is what would be the reaction to an allied invasion of the low countries plus a declaration of war on Ireland?

[ November 23, 2003, 07:59 PM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

[Shaka of Carthage]

The question remains - what would be the best way to reflect his reaction in a future version of SC?

The statements that precede this question bring up alot of issues...

Neutrals always having the same initial setup has been a constant complaint. This argument is usually heard about Russia, but every now and then, you'll hear it for the other neutrals, among them Spain and Greece.

Spain would mobilize additional units. Thats a logical assumption, but is it a valid one? I don't know. Not alot of effort has went into determing the OOB of the Spanish forces, since they were not involved in WWII.

Getting back to the original question though, is the fact that if Germany had invaded Sweden and Vichy France, SC doesn't give the Axis enough penalties to restrain them. I'm convinced that if Germany had invaded Sweden and Vichy France (your "cookie cutter" approach), Spain and Turkey would have declared for the Allies.

Understand also that Italy and Spain were rivals. If Germany had offerred any Med possesions to Spain, Italy should withdraw from Axis (as a neutral), and possibly even declare for the Allies.

Your "mobilization/readiness" table either covers the above or can be easily modified to do so.

Chicanos are not Spanish-Americans. They are mostly Mexican-Americans or even Latin-Americans. Big difference. Mother country would be Mexico, not Spain.

Well-Dressed Gentleman brings up one of the weaknesses of SC. Minor neutrals are tied to Berlin (or London) for purposes of determing if they have a line of supply. They shouldn't. They should be tied to thier own nation. Furthermore, if the line of supply was tied to thier own capital, then they wouldn't be shorted MPPs. Add the ability to purchase Minor neutral HQ's (or even additional units) and you've just about fixed it. Lets hope SCII moves in that direction.

Now the question is what would be the reaction to an allied invasion of the low countries plus a declaration of war on Ireland?

Thats why I called your "mobilization" table above a "mobilization/readiness" table. Thier should be a diplomatic cost for certain neutrals being invaded by a specific side. A UK led invasion of the Low Countries or Ireland would have had serious political repercussions throughout the Commonwealth (ie think in terms of modern day US "invading" Canada to add more states to the US). A UK or France led invasion in addition would possibly have led to the US not entering the war against Germany and/or could have possibly led to Turkey declaring for the Axis. It could even have pushed Russia back a few years from any conflict with Germany.

Again, this is something SCII needs to address.

[ November 23, 2003, 09:32 PM: Message edited by: Shaka of Carthage ]

[JerseyJohn]

Edwin,

Actually, I don't think it's relevant historically.

The only reason Franco did not join the Axis is Admiral Wilhelm Canaris, head of the Abwehr, was sent to Madrid by Hitler to arrange things before the historic meeting on board the Fuhrer Train, Amerika. Canaris was secretly an anti-nazi and sabotaged the effort. Franco was very concerned and felt a German invasion would automatically topple him from power (the Civil War was over less than a year). He was already resolved to joining the Axis. Canaris assured him that Hitler had already moved all of Germany's major units east for refitting and reassignment to Poland.

According to accounts that have survived of their meeting, Franco needed to told this twice, then nodded and shook Canaris' hand. The admiral continued to Lisbon, where he repeated the message to Salizaar as Hitler was also seeking Portugal's entry into the Axis, and again it would have happened if Spain had joined.

In game terms, I'd set it up so Spain enters the Axis if Vichy France is successfully invaded (Franco wanted French Equatorial Africa and several other territories, none of which were conceded by Hitler as he was still hoping to have Vichy join voluntarily!) and a given number of German troops end up along the Spanish border.

Probably three armies or tank units and an HQ.

If Vichy is not conquered by the Axis (either Germany or Italy would be fine) then Spain remains as in the game, not joining unless London falls.

Other than the creation of a weak Franco HQ adjacent north of Madrid I wouldn't change the Spanish OOB; the troops would not have hugged the capital and the only weakness is one of supply, settled for game purposes by the HQ.

Shaka

You make a number of excellent points but I don't believe there was any possibility of either Portugal or Spain actively joining the Allies, ever! Turkey is a different situation, but even there, it's hard to see where it would have had anything to gain by joining Britain, while standing to lose everything by opposing Germany. Particularly before Barbarossa, when it might well have been feared that a further agreement between Germany and the USSR might have called for an Allied Turkey being placed in the Soviet sphere -- Russia's traditional desire for the Dardenelles. Hitler would have had no qualms about making such a deal as he'd assume he'd pick it up by default after the final, inevitable showdown! Meanwhile, Turkey would have ceased to exist.

Good point about the Italo/Spanish territorial rivalry. But there was also the open issue of Franco, in large part, owing his regime to rifles and other weapons provided him by Mussolini; so many were sent that the Italian Army was itself short of equiptment!

From what I've read, the understanding Franco had regarding the division of French and British territory was: Morocco, Algeria, Equatorial Africa and Gibraltar to Spain, with Tunisia, Malta, Egypt and the Sudan to Italy.

[ November 23, 2003, 10:24 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[Edwin P.]

I think that there are several historically possible outcomes that should be considered in SC2;

1. Spain (elaborating based on points raised by Shaka of Carthage and JerseyJohn)

1A. Spain Remains Neutral

1B. Spain Joins Axis (as per JerseyJohns comments)

1C. Spain Prepares to Defend Itself

1D. Spain Buys off the Germans when threatened (say 20MPP per turn not to invade)

1E. Allies influence Spain to standfast and remain neutral in face of Axis Threat while supplying Spain with Arms.

1F. Germany offers Spain Vichy Algeria to encourage them to join the Axis, perhaps this causes Italy to Withdraw from the Axis.

2. Turkey

2A. Turkey Remains Neutral

2B. Turkey Annexes Syria if Germany Attacks Vichy France

2C. Turkey Annexes Iraq if German Sea Lion or Axis takes Cairo

2D. If Axis takes Spain and Sweden (Shaka Of Carthage says) there is a chance that Turkey joins the Allies, especially if they sanction the return of Syria and Iraq to Turkey.

3. Sweden

3A. Sweden mobilizes for war if Switzerland or Vichy and Spain is attacked.

3B. Sweden and Norway sign a joint defense treaty

3C. Chance for a joint Nowegian/Swedish/Finland Defense Treaty if Allies attack Ireland and Low Countries and Axis attack Denmark and Switzerland and Spain

4. Polish Air Force

If Polish Air Force Operates to Sweden then Sweden then it should become a Free Polish Unit under the control of Sweden.

If Polish Air Force Operates to UK/France it should become a Free Polish unit after Poland Falls

5. Norway

If UK attacks Ireland and Low Countries their should be a chance that Norway joins the Axis or signs a defense treaty with Sweden

[JerseyJohn]

Edwin,

"1F. Germany offers Spain Vichy Algeria to encourage them to join the Axis, perhaps this causes Italy to Withdraw from the Axis."

Basically I agree with all of them and think you've put together a fine list.

On 1F, however, I don't think there was any possibility of Italy withdrawing from the Axis other than as a result of being decisively defeated, as per the historical fact.

The best solution would be for Hubert to amend tha game map to separate Tunisia from Algeria.

Tunis and Malta would have been vital links for Italy in her East African Empire, ideally making it continginous from Tunis all the way through to the Red Sea and Indian Ocean. Spain would have liked having Algeria for national pride and also it would have made a find dividing line with Italy. Spain would probably not have had much interest in Tunisia and Italy, considering the other very large tracts of land she was planning to administer, would probably not have been interested in Algeria.

I think there's room in the game for a full city and port at Tunis as well as the nation of Tunisia in the context given above.

[Edwin P.]

Interesting points Jersey John and I agree with them. But perhaps, Italy would have been a bit peeved and not have withdrawn from the Axis, but merely limited the deployment of its units to defend the Italian possessions - ie no more Italian units in Russia.

In game terms: Italian Units in Russia may only move West & Italian units may not enter Russia or Finland. Chance 10% if Germany gives Algeria to Spain, 70% if Germany gives Algeria and Egypt to Spain. Of course would Germany give Egypt to Spain, I doubt it but perhaps Germany would if it caused Spain to Join the Axis, especially if the Allies had already attacked the Low Countries and Ireland. Anyway this is a what-if game and the what-ifs can be most interesting.

Example:

100% Spain Joins Axis if Allies Attacked Ireland and Low Countries and Germany gives a conquered Algeria and Egypt to Spain. This has a 70% to cause the Italian Government to limit their cooperation with Germany. Italian Units in Russia may only move West.

[ November 24, 2003, 12:25 AM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

[Shaka of Carthage]

JerseyJohn makes a good point. When I heard Algeria, I was thinking in terms of the SC map. If the territory was split, as JerseyJohn described, then I would agree about Italy staying happy. Otherwise, if Italy is denied its part of North Africa, there should be some sort of negative effect on the Axis.

Btw, JerseyJohn, read your e-mail. I need you to send me a test e-mail to make sure I fixed the blocking issue.

[ November 24, 2003, 12:25 AM: Message edited by: Shaka of Carthage ]

[JerseyJohn]

Edwin

Interesting points and I agree 100% with the Italian troops in the USSR and Germany idea.

I'd consider further what Hitler envisioned as the role, also postwar, of what he regarded as his principal Allies prior to Franco's refussal to enter the fold. Mainly this:

Italy Central North Africa and all of East Africa connecting into her prewar colonies; in Europe Yugoslavia and Greece if they joined Britain.

Vichy France The French Global Empire, including Algeria and Equatorial Africa.

Spain Gibraltar in exchange for a naval base on one of the Canary Islands to be ceded to Germany!

In other words, he regarded Spain as already being in the position of repaying a debt to both himself and Mussolini. Gibraltar was a given, but he had no desire to upset France by promising any of it's colonies to Spain.

Now, assuming VichyFrance is finally cut loose and divied up, Hitler would still have been more inclined to favor Italy than Spain, which would have been promised nothing at all in the Eastern Med, least of all Egypt! That would have been insuring a future war between the two countries and Franco would have been far too smart to even accept such a territory if offered.

Above all else, these men were pragmatists rather than just seeking pieces of land for the sake of possessing them. Italy needed Egypt to control it's link with the East African colonies. It was the main reason for entering the war -- Spain? -- no reason at all to mention it in the same breath with Egypt, it wasn't happening. Also, it would have screwed up other German / Italian plans for the Middle East.

In a postwar world, Hitler saw Spain as an Atlantic power to help him control the Congo and possible South American ventures, with Italy as an African / Indian Ocean power to held counter Japanese westward expansion. In that context, A Spanish Algeria and Morocco fit in nicely; not so with a Spanish Egypt, it's as out of place as an Italian Gibraltar!

[JerseyJohn]

Shaka

Glad we're of the same mind on those territories.

Off to check the e-mail.

[Edwin P.]

So say four options for Germany;

1. Germany Gives Spain Algeria only

2. Germany Gives Spain Algeria and Tunisia

3. Germany Gives Spain Algeria, Tunisia and Egypt

4. Germany Gives Spain Algeria and Egypt.

Italian Reactions;

Peeved - Italian units in Russia can only move west and other Italian units can not enter Russia or Germany.

Really Peeved - Italian Units are withdrawn to defend Italian Possessions.

Mad as Heck - Italian Units are withdrawn to defend Italian Possessions. As soon as all Italian units are in Italian Territory Italy declares neutrality.

[ November 24, 2003, 12:44 AM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

[JerseyJohn]

I honestly don't believe Franco would have wanted to go any further east than Algeria. Tunisia was clearly coveted by Italy and of little use to Spain. Same with Egypt or Malta. Italy was the one looking for control of the Central and Eastern Med and seeking an outlet to the Red Sea; not Spain.

It's more likely that Germany would have offered some Dutch and Belgium colonies, possible even the Congo if Vichy wasn't to be invaded.

I'd tie all this into a Vichy reaction to the UK invasion of Syria and the shelling of the French fleet at Mirs el Kabir. If Vichy either joins the Axis or is conquered by it I think the chances of Spanish entry increase dramatically.

As with Tunisia, Italy coveted Nice, Marsielles and Toulon, so they wouldn't have been used as bargaining chips for Spain.

Hitler offered Franco comparatively little; he thought the man would do backflips at the prospect of receiving Gibraltar, but he was wrong. I believe Franco's interests would have been French Morocco, Algeria, Equatorial Africa and Gibraltar. These are huge additions and he was well aware that Spain was still shattered from years of internal destruction. He would never have bitten off more than he thought he could chew.

Interested revised reactions; Neutrality is perhaps a possibility in terms of arranging such an agreement with the UK, but would Germany have gone along with it? If not, would Hitler have been willing to invade an Italy still ruled by Mussolini?

The Hitler / Mussolini friendship was genuine. Neither would have deliberately screwed the other.

-- Almost one in the morning! Turning in.

Thanks for some great ponderings -- I think these are all good ideas Edwin and worth developing.

[ November 24, 2003, 12:49 AM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[Edwin P.]

I agree with you and if the Germans are stupid enough to offer Franco's Spain Territories that Italy wants there should be serious conseqences.

In addition as you said there should be a chance that Spain rejects the offers outside of Spain's sphere of influence and Italy is peeved when news of the offer leaks to the press.

[JerseyJohn]

That's an idea -- despite their friendliness, the two dictators often failed to communicate properly or were occasionally on totally different wavelegnths.

We'd need to find some territory that both Italy and Spain covetted.

Spain wouldn't be looking north of the Pyranies nor Italy south of them. Tunisia and Algeria have a pretty perfect natural border so it wouldn't be there either.

Perhaps the bone of contention wouldn't be a territory, but some sort of resource item such as available oil or mineral resources or even grain.

In any event, it's definitely off to bed now.

[ November 24, 2003, 01:07 AM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[well-dressed gentleman]

There should be a guitar solo that plays faster

in tune with Spanish war readiness, followed by

a trumpet that chimes in on the turn that Spain

prepares for war. Then on the turn of DOW, you'd get the whole mariachi band.

[ November 24, 2003, 09:26 AM: Message edited by: well-dressed gentleman ]

[Comrade Trapp]

Originally posted by well-dressed gentleman:

There should be a guitar solo that plays faster

in tune with Spainish war readiness, then a

trumpet that chimes in on the turn that Spain

prepares for war.

Then on the turn of DOW, you'd get the whole

mariachi band.

Ok.....That was just about the most random thing that I've heard said on this forum. You even got Kuni beat with that one.

Comrade Trapp

[pzgndr]

Neutrals always having the same initial setup has been a constant complaint.

Some neutrals do have different setups depending on who declares war. Finland is an example. Try declaring war as Axis and invading, a mistake I made in a recent game. :eek:

Hubert has demonstrated that neutral setups can be variable based on time (like USSR) and who declares war (like Finland). This probably could have been expanded in SC for all neutral but wasn't. It definitely should be worked into SC2, including reaction to where the invasion is coming from and possibly multiple setups to provide some uncertainty. :cool:

[Bill101]

There's some good and interesting ideas being discussed here. I just want to comment on this idea of Edwin's:

4. Polish Air Force

If Polish Air Force Operates to Sweden then Sweden then it should become a Free Polish Unit under the control of Sweden.

If Polish Air Force Operates to UK/France it should become a Free Polish unit after Poland Falls.

In reality, almost all of the Polish air force that escaped went to Romania (about 100 combat aircraft flew there on 17th September 1939, as well as other more obsolete models).

The Romanians later made use of the aircraft against Russia, while 5,000 Polish air and ground crew escaped via Romania and Hungary to France and Britain.

It would have been beyond the Polish air force to escape (or operate in SC terms) directly to France or Britain, but I think that history could be portrayed as below:

Polish air force operates to France or UK:

1) It arrives 1/2 strength in the west, and becomes Free Polish after the fall of Poland.

2) Romania has an air fleet added to her OOB, but at reduced strength (half the strength of the air fleet before it was operated).

This will go some way to represent all those East Europeans who fought in the French and British air forces, and will also be a good game balancer in favour of the allies during those crucial early years.

This helps the allies more because the Romanian air fleet will not only be weak, costing the Axis player MPPs to get it combat worthy, but it will also become obsolete once the Russians get jets.

I'd also like to see the Romanian air force represented, hence my suggestion.

[ November 24, 2003, 09:55 AM: Message edited by: Bill101 ]

[JerseyJohn]

WellDressed

By Jove I think you've hit upon something, only why stop with Spain?

We could have a tarantella for Italy, some Dvorak for Hungary, Sibelius for Finland, Grieg for Norway, Nielsen for Denmark, a little Gypsy music for Romania, Zorba for Greece, Masque music for Turkey and Iraq, Smetena for Bulgaria, Guy Lombardo for Canada, Glenn Miller for the USA, Shostakovitch for Russia, James Galway for Ireland and only God Knows What for the Low Countries and Portugal!

Hopefully Hubert would allow for sound toggling so nobody would have to listen to that racket.

Bill101

The ammended Polish Air operating sounds good, I hate to see them doomed to a deadend in the game.

[ November 24, 2003, 09:54 AM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[well-dressed gentleman]

Right. And Wagner for Germany.

Everyone's got some decent music.

Obviously, you'd want the songs played at

dramatically appropriate times (escalating

tension with a given country, heroic defense

of country's homeland) and not a Casablanca

situation where the music battles it out.

The worst video games have songs that repeat

endlessly and cannot be turned off.