Why Axis have an advantage over the Allies.

[zappsweden]

As i see it, the rules give Axis an advantage over the allis because:

a) The interception rules (losses) favour the air force with the initiative which often is the german air force.

The technology gap between Axis and US+Russia increases instead of decreases because of the FEW initial research points they start with. USA and Russia can't afford to invest heavily in research since every extra unit is so critical to stop the germans.

c) Since there are no winter effects, Axis can overrun Russia too quickly.

d) The dual axis threat on UK and The Mediterranean and the slow transport system of troops and navy on the route UK-Egypt makes it possible for axis to totally DOMINATE the mediterranean.

e) Since multiple air attacks on the same target has no penalty, cities are VERY HARD to hold. In the mid-game when Axis has Air fleets with lots of experience, 4-5 Axis air fleets almost wipes the defenders out so the ground forces have no problem destroying any opposition left.

[ November 30, 2002, 09:17 AM: Message edited by: zappsweden ]

[Carl G. E. von Mannerheim]

Well, in the early portion of the game, the Axis should have the advantage.

Perhaps there should be a Momentum system in the game. Certain events could help swing the Momentum in either side's favor. Certain events like France surrendering, Massive Kesselschlact victory on the Ostfront. While events like repelled invasion of Britain, sorrounding of large amounts of german troops in Russia, or A Massive allied bombong raid on Berlin would swing the momentum for the allies.

Thoughts?

CvM

[Roghain]

I dunno. I found that once the Allied player uses the Low Countries war to good effect, ie declaring war on and taking the LC in turn 2 or three (quite easy really as most Axis players will have their main army in Poland) ends the game there. The denial of 400+ MPP to the Axis (by in effect making the LC their ally) and granting those MPP to France (or the UK) gives in the very early stages of the game too big a difference. The French can then easily stall the germans, or even deny them France totally. In either case, the Germans need speed to end the game?

Or, and this is possible, I miss something? I have been defeated several times now when playing the Axis when my opponent used the LC game.

Any adeas?

[jon_j_rambo]

Rogaine --- Any ideas? Sure, here's one: play the top competition. I've head-cracked plenty so far.

"I'll make you famous" -Young Guns

jon_j_rambo@yahoo.com

[Rouge]

As powerful as they are at the end of the day WHO won the war.....?

Actually no one "wins" a war, there are always losses but in the primitive arithmitic of war it was us who had more lives to spend at the wars end.

[Roghain]

Cute Rambo, but really, I am playing about 4-6 PBEM games every day (a turn a day), so I am not prepared to play even more, unless I get a second life...

There must be people who have ideas on either why the LC war game is too unbalancing or on why I am incompetent and explain how to circumvent it or defeat it.

Please?

[murks]

I believe the main problem the allies have is experience. The polish can't do much harm to the germans, so german units gain quite a lot of experience early on. This in turn leads to high french losses and low german losses in the battle for france. Even the bit of experience the french may gain will be lost with the eventual destruction of the army and the fall of france.

In short: the experience gap keeps widening till very late in the war, because inexperienced units can gain experience almost only against other inexperienced units. When attacking an experienced unit, their losses will be so high that after reinforcing they will be back at zero while the experienced unit has gained even more experience.

At the point where the allies can start to attack something themselves, however, there will hardly be any inexperienced german units around to "train on". The only solution is to attack neutrals first to build up a core force with some experience that can dare to face the germans, or maybe the italians who usually aren't very experienced either.

[Lord Flasheart]

Long time lurker first time poster...so bear

with me.

I've played SC a far number of time as the allies

and to win a game you have to

1) Keep the Germans fighting in France as long as possible

2) Hold out in Russia until the USA&UK can

launch a successful invasion of France which

then allows you to get a/some Russian HQs..

3)Get the UK up to have a fleet of 6 Jet Fighters

with Monty & the USA with a fair sized army with

Ike.

But everyone knows this...8-)

I think the crux is point 2, after I've got some

Russian HQ's things slowly but surely change on

the Eastern Front (against the AI anyway).

So to balance the game...how about allowing the

Russians to start with Zhukov in Stalingrad as

soon as Germany invades?

A Russians HQ tied to the 2 11 Point tanks and

3 Fighter Planes might make all the difference.

Would make the Russian attacks a little less

feeble early on anyway.

And if this still isn't enough maybe a free Monty

for the Brits to fight the Battle of Britain and

maybe a free French HQ on the continent aswell.

Wow I know no French HQ names. 8-)

[desertfox5768]

I think it all comes down to the fact that Italy is actually useful militarily. How come their armies and corps are just as good as the American, British, Russian, and German ones? I read a book about the war in Africa and very small numbers of British soldiers would routinely butcher huge numbers of Italian soldiers, which were more often than not completely worthless or all too willing to surrender.

I played a game as the Allies and the Italian army and navy often gave me as much trouble as the Germans. *sigh*

[GDS_STARFURY]

More often then not those Italian losses were due more to Officer stupidity then the individual soldiers. Many German officers when commanding Italian troops gave them high praise. For a similar situation look at the opening of Barbarossa. I dont think anyone here can discredit the Russian soldiers bravery but the decisions from higher up doomed millions.

[ev]

Originally posted by zappsweden:

As i see it, the rules give Axis an advantage over the allis because:

Is the game really that tilted?

I just finished a game playing Allied against the AI at the default Begginer +0. I finished the Axis off by the Spring of 1942.

I have played the Axis several times, and never managed to defeat the Allied AI that quickly.

Several of the points you mention are worthwhile looking at. But, some of them cut both ways (against or in favor of either side depending on yous strategy.) And, there are also other points that hurt the axis, like the way subs work out (see elsewhere on this site for more on this).

I agree there is room for imporvements, but I don't see this game as being particularly unbalanced in favor of the Axis. ...then again, I may change my mind as I gain more experience and when I finally get to play real people.

[JerseyJohn]

Originally posted by GDS_STARFURY:

"More often then not those Italian losses were due more to Officer stupidity then the individual soldiers. Many German officers when commanding Italian troops gave them high praise."

The Italian Army was ruined by poor equipment and too many political hacks appointed in key officer posts. They fought well in defending Ethiopia and consistantly fought well after Rommel arrived on the scene in North Africa. He usually used Italian infantry as a holding force while his Germans and Italian armor (also poorly equipped) did the attacking: hammer and anvil style.

In Russia they fared poorly because they had no real anti-tank equipment and the Soviets threw T-34's at them; the Rumanians were also shattered and for the same reason.

Great point and why I always get annoyed when a certain group is singled out as being lousy soldiers -- it's never that simple.

[ December 03, 2002, 11:30 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[viper_ss]

Sometimes I feel like the game is tilted in one direction or another and then an event or battle occurs that sways everything. The feeling goes back and forth throughout the game.

So far, I haven't seen a distinct advantage on either side. The Axis do pickup a lot of experience early and it makes it very hard to beat them but as the Allies, you need to focus on the most experienced unit. Keep pounding them into the ground. Try to focus on units instead of spreading attacks out. Do realize that when you hurt them, you are in theory lowering their experience because when they reinforce themselves, down goes the experience.

Research is huge also. As the allies, research a lot with the UK early on. By those research points early because they stay with you forever.

One area that I do find unbalanced is submarines. Subs have no chance in that game. It's too easy to find and destroy them. The two German subs in the beginning of the game are almost always destroyed on the first or second turn.

[Norse]

Originally posted by desertfox5768:

I think it all comes down to the fact that Italy is actually useful militarily. How come their armies and corps are just as good as the American, British, Russian, and German ones? I read a book about the war in Africa and very small numbers of British soldiers would routinely butcher huge numbers of Italian soldiers, which were more often than not completely worthless or all too willing to surrender.

I played a game as the Allies and the Italian army and navy often gave me as much trouble as the Germans. *sigh*

Italy already starts out with much less forces than historically, if you think 1 army = 100.000 men (which it isn't). The Italian's had submarines, planes, forces in Sicily etc. None of this is given to Italy's setup forces. So I'd say Hubert crippled Italy due to it's initial problems, so you haveto spend MPP's on upgrading your Italian military to get it en par with the Brits.

Considering that it would take 4 turns to buy a HQ (which is so very essential), 4 more turns to get the planes, the tanks near the alps, etc. I'd say that your complaints are uncalled for. It's already in the game.

Unless of course, you simply think the Italian soldiers are Üntermensch and have some genetical disfunction that make them unable to fight, even if their equipment is upgraded and their officercorp is given the upmost education... If this is your attitude then you lack insight (among other things...).

Explaining the poor performance of some Italian units in the war, cannot be explained with "but they are Italians!! they CAN'T fight!!"

Italians created a huge empire that lasted over a thousand years. This already proves that they "can" fight.

Soldiers fight with the odds their leaders give them. If you want your soldiers to fight better, then improve the military doctrine, improve the training, improve the logistics, improve the equipment and put capable people with insight into the leading positions. Then your soldiers can gain the advantage over the enemy. (this one is also for you CvM, who claimed that manpower can never be developed...)

It is stupid to suggest that the Italian units should have worse performance than the rest, simply because they are Italians.

~Norse~

oh yes, also Rambo is of Italian orgin....

[Yohan]

to viper_ss

Re you comment about subs I must heartily disagree. If you have ever faced a top notch German opponent you will find they often build subs making the Atlantic a killing field for the US arrival

[viper_ss]

Yohan, I disagree.

The UK player can effectively destroy everything in the Atlantic and then shutdown the North Sea in the first few turns of the game. Once you've done that, you can just destroy subs as the Axis player builds them.

I'll admit that I haven't played Germany yet so maybe once I'm them I'll figure out a way to make them very effective.

[edwinp]

Axis Advanatage? - I found that by taking Sicily early after the italians enter the war, the allied forces can't lose to the Axis AI even at the Exper +2 level. Why?

Hold Sicily with 1 UK HQ + 1Army + 3Air + 1 air on Gibralar and supported with carriers and battleships. Axis AI will concentrate a good portion of its forces trying to retake the island although this severly weakens its eastern front forces.

Each turn it loses one unit in fruitless one on one attacks and the allied defenders gain experience.

I tried this strategy with the new 1.06 upgrade and the new italian corps in Italy and it still works. The only difference is that the Axis AI will now assign 1 or 2 Air units to support its attacks, and since they are shore based they are easily destroyed by bombardment from the sea and air.

[Fubarno]

Against the AI is one thing but try this strategy against a human opponent and there is going to be trouble for the Allies.

I think the statement of this thread that the game favored the Axis mostly referred to head to head competition.