In post-Poland invasion which way did these countries lean (Axis vs Allies)?

[Feldtrompeter]

Denmark a non-factor?

You guys must be kidding.

In 1992 Denmark beat Germany in the European Soccer Championship final 2:0 and got the trophy.

That doesn't sound like a non-factor to me.

The US Soccer team was not even qualified.

So who is factor and who is not!

Feldtrompeter

PS: Just adapting the level of argumentation that this threat has gotten to ...

[ January 23, 2004, 06:46 AM: Message edited by: Feldtrompeter ]

[Curry]

OHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!

[Edwin P.]

Denmark had a bigger impact on the the war than many people think.

Why? Allied intelligence agents frequently traveled between Denmark and Sweden.

[Liam]

Well actually, unlike all the European Countries... Nations like Denmark had lots of treasures, infrastructure, etc... Unlike nations like the Bahamas... Which are remote resorts, ex colonials. Denmark is an ancient Nation and not only that but you can easily enlist many of the locals with the offering of food and wine<anyone take it vs Starving to death including you guys> to be police or Eastern Front Garrison troops

If you fought Hitler as a mini-Nation he'd of just made your suffering worse. These nations never armed themselves. They were relying on Nations like England and France to keep the International Balance. Also invading them gave Germany great Gains but also the Image of a Barbarian which in the end was part of their undoing.

You have to remeber something else in 1939 the Wermacht would've run over the American Army in a few weeks... We were really pitiful at the time. honestly do you think any nation with the less than a few hundred thousand men in arms could do?

The Germans were fighters, they were equiped, they spent their cash on their arms... they were capable... Most weren't. Have to remeber France, Britian and USSR are the factors that should've stopped Worldwide Socialism. Their leaders were MAJORLY incompetent, selfish, and did crap or the War probably would've ended in France in 1940.

Want an example look at Italy. the Greek Army nearly routed them The Italians were not cut out for War in 1940 and in fact they never did much to speak of but overran Albania and Ethiopia? Oh my God. I think they still used Spears as the FrontLine Anti-Tank Weapon in those Nations... Plus the Italians heard an artillery shell dropped their rifles and ran

[jon_j_rambo]

Of course it was easy for Germany to get all worked up with Hitler, build tanks & kill farmers. They didn't look too smart in the Battle of Britain. Goering & his Nazi flyboys didn't have a clue against a real opponent. But the Germans compared to the Italians, yes, they are Natural Born Killers.

Denmark won a soccor game? Congrats, post it at www.espn.com. Soccor is boring to me. I prefer basketball, both NBA & NCAA. I don't understand a sport were you run around for 90 minutes (or more, because you don't know the real time) & nobody scores. Then, when somebody does score, they stall. Soccor would be a little bit more interesting if you could "really tackle", use your hands, etc. (See Football, NFL baby!)

all europeans have been and are still nazis ? man, that sucks !

I didn't say that, "still" part. Most of them died in WW-2 & were snuffed out by the Russians in the Cold War. Europe is against Israel today, I do know that.

nothing against the us - but what should i think of a country where people are not allowed to smoke or drink alcohol on the streets but everybody age 9+ carries a gun ?

You can drink alcohol on the streets at certain public events & at bars which own property outside. You can smoke outside in public, just not inside buildings. Actually, the USA had prohibition in the early 1900's, were drinking was illegal EVERYWHERE, thus creating organized crime. You must be 18 to buy a gun, maybe 16, not sure, it's called the 2nd Ammendment. It was written so when King George's Red Coats wanted to kick your door in & shoot you...at least you could go down with a fight.

</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;"> and where it is still allowed to march through the streets carrying a swastika and shouting "sieg heil" (hail victory)... </pre>

[jon_j_rambo]

Also, I don't know squat about all that Euro Geography...Austria, Czechcolsockvia, Yugoslavia, Serbia, Baltic States, Urkraine, Gronzy, Georgia, East Germany, West Germany, "Tear Down this Wall", West RhineLand of France, etc. I don't have a clue, everything changes each month, one-day it's Iron Curtain, than Nato, then Euro, then European Union. I couldn't imagine being the one who must update www.yahoo.maps/euros.com, but I bet it's good for maps sales.

[japinard]

Avatar - your post was immensly helpful and informative. I had Portugal on the Axis side, and Denmark on the Allied side.

Somethihg interesting I found out while doing this research was the Netherlands had the highest % of citizens per capita that volunteered for the SS. There were (up to ) 50,000 Dutch who entered that group.

http://members.shaw.ca/grossdeutschland/players.htm

Was Anne Frank shuttered up in the Netherlands? If so, I now understand why with a huige amount of that population pro-Axis.

[Liam]

Rambo...

Nazis, smazis... War has been going on since the beginning of time. In this sense almost every Innocent is Guilty. The Germans used an evil Dictator and a bunch of backwards Ideology. The first World War created a bunch of poisoned men and poisoned ideas that created a 2nd war... It was Balance of sorts...There are plenty of people that would say that George Bush would light up the world with Nukes to stop the North Korean Threat in the name of Humanity and end up causing a Global conflict. Would he think smart and send in 50,000 Special Trained Commandos or talk a bunch of trash and Say mine is Bigger than Yours?

Americans are not innocent. We stole this land from hundreds of thousands<if not Millions of Natives> They're not innocent a recent skull finding says that in fact the American Indians may have come here and gone to war with an earlier settling people from Asia or Polynesia to take it.

War is about Wealth, Power, the Nature of Humanity. Whether it's wrong or right, ultimately death is the outcome. Becareful though, if Bush were to end all Civilization as we know it for some stupid error or cause the death of say few hundred Million Asians we'd all be seen as the biggest bloodiest Evil Empire that ever exists. Fine line exists. I can't say that the man's hand might not be forced either.

Germany say the Ability to expand, noone was going to stop them. Noone had the Cohonas. They felt we're stronger, we're willing to die for it and the rest of you aren't. The problem was they took a crap in the backyard of too many Other Bigger Dogs. Like the USA/USSR/UK and finally it caught up with them Otherwise when would the US ever gotten involved? Never... Hitler and his regime was ugly, but the concept of expansion goes with Cereal and Milk. It's a good way to make money and did Wonders for their economy till they found out their dictator was more idealy suited to lead a squad of men not a nation. That their ideologies were backwards

I think that we all want Humanity, a common ground. Not foolish though, the World is a Dangerous place, don't go out of your way to hurt anyone but don't let yourself get walked over. Remeber what the bible said though, "The Meek Shall inherit the Earth." It's true, cause all the Warriors will kill each other off and the Little Bugs and Rodents will hide and reproduce in the little protected nooks and crannies

[japinard]

Avatar - All things being equal do you think the Low Countries would have been Allied or Axis?

[jon_j_rambo]

Japinard --- I will be political correct so people are happy. You cannot label or sterotype any group of people. Groups are made up of individuals. 50,000 decided to sign-up for the Waffen-SS, that doesn't mean they are Nazi. Maybe they were good little Dutch dudes who were just trying to pay there bills & the Third Reich was hiring. I'm sure there were plenty of groups & invididuals who did not apply for Waffen-SS jobs. Some fought early. Maybe some knew they had no chance & would fight later in the Underground system or something. Typically, 80% of the people go with the flow, that means they followed whatever flag is flown, that is winning at the time.

Euro thought process:

1) Hitler steps on the scene, they're unsure.

2) Hitler gets in charge, they become a Nazi, but not a fanatic.

3) Germany gets some wins (Poland, LC, France). Euros love Hitler.

4) New battles, new recuriting process, more Euros willing to help the cause.

5) Germans start to lose, they work on an exit plan.

6) Allies move it.....oh, it wasn't me.

Bottom Line: Start the LC as Nazi.

[japinard]

Rambo you actually have a good point. I'd never thought much about the fact people may have needed jobs and at that early point in the war many of the NAzi atrocities would not have been known. I believe after his early acquisitions Hitler stated he had no intentnios to expand Germanies borders - and people were all too happy to try and believe that.

[Liam]

From what I've read in the old days it wasn't anywhere near 50,000 Dutch, more like 15,000. Plus the Dutch were fighting the Japs in the Pacific<you know what being captured by the Japanese Meant, worse than being captured by the Russians>

The fact of the matter is, many of the LC people are German. Where did the Kaiser run off to after WW1. There should be no Dutch defences and just 1 Belgique Corps more accurately IMO

[xwormwood]

Originally posted by Liam:

The fact of the matter is, many of the LC people are German. Where did the Kaiser run off to after WW1. There should be no Dutch defences and just 1 Belgique Corps more accurately IMO

Uh-oh. :eek: :mad:

Who told you this rubbish about german people in the LC??? :confused:

The Kaiser went to the Netherlands because they were NEUTRAL in WW1. And they wanted to stay neutral, noone blames the swiss for taking refugees from everywhere.

The LC did fight in WW2. Rotterdam paid a heavy price for this.

LC surrendered quickly, yes, but is this really such a surprise?

They tried to fight like every other nation (except Germany) in 1939/1940: with WW1 tactics, and because of their small countrysize there was no time to learn the new way of war, no 2000 km to retreat and there was of course no ocean to hide behind as well.

Divebombers, commando-units, airborne infantry, independend tankunits and a MASSIV attack, these LC-armies got quite a lot to chew.

Blame the US for Pearl Harbor , blame the UK for advancing so sloooowly (Monty) from France to Germany etc. etc., but blaming the LC for surrendering in continental europe in 1940 is laughable.

Btw.: Their navy fought on, not only in the PTO.

edit:short history lesson for beginners:

a forgotten chapter

Fall of the Low Countries and France

[ January 27, 2004, 09:35 PM: Message edited by: xwormwood ]

[Liam]

LOL Worm, I have a Girlfriend who's GrandFather was Belgian and served in the Wermacht but he was 50ish by then and Germany was calling every able Bodied man. What some forget too, if you were of Military Service Age, and you didn't fight what do you think the Local S.S. or German Police would do to you and your family? You're right, the Dutch in their history were definitely fighters and a "MAJOR" Power and in comparison with Germany they were like Kuwait was to Iraq. In 1940, Once upon a time however the Dutch were probably a comparison Power with Prussia. Century before Prussia formed.

[jon_j_rambo]

LC, Belguim, Dutch, Rhineland, Luxemberg, Netherlands, whatever...The Euros backed Hitler, the only NATIONS that really fought the Stigma of the Nazis were the Brits, Russians, & Americans. Those SS men of the Low Countries & the majority thought they had a winner following the Madman.

The word stigma means to mark, especially the mark made by a brand as burnt upon cattle of slaves. It is the same word used for the searing with a hot iron in 1 Timothy 4:2. Fugitive Greek and Roman slaves, if recaptured, were branded on the forehead. This brand is called a stigma. The term stigma is used to this day for something with an evil connotation.

Make the letter A=100, B=101, C=102, etc. This will yield:

H = 107

I = 108

T = 119

L = 111

E = 104

R = 117

= 666

In the twentieth century the symbol of the stigma began to emerge from the shadows. At the same time, the line of demarcation between teh occult and teh rest of the world began to disappear. The stigma burst into Western culture as the insignia of Hitler's SS, the elite corps of men who were used to seek out and to kill Jews. It then became a frequent feature on the album covers of rock and roll bands. Black Sabbath put out a record titled,"We Sold For Rock 'n Roll"......

[Liam]

Dunno iv I believe in all that Numerological stuff Rambo. Even though I would say Hitler was Evil. In every sense of the Word, Scientifically and Spiritually<no matter what form it is for you> he was the most evil man that stood out of the 20th century. There have been others like him in the past. From the Mongol Khans, to Vladimir Dracula, Countess Bathory. Some may even say Ivan the Terrible. On and on...

Though there are so many even figures in history. It's neverending. I would say that Hitler was definitely one who came close to conquoring the World in 1941 and inflicting his ideology on the World forevermore. Though Good stood out in the Hearts of Many Men and fought the Evil. I won't say that the Europeans were much help. Gotta remeber though the USA, USSR, and UK all stood by and watched him grow. Was their no forsight? Then again Stalin was a pretty evil man himself, just not quite as ambitious about spreading his Ideology 'everywhere' or was it merely the fact he didn't have the time? Some say he was a Devil also. Make evil is embodied in more than one Figure. Though in many, throughout time and until this day. It's up to the few good men to stand up and fight Evil. Kinda like the Rambo Movies aye

[xwormwood]

Originally posted by jon_j_rambo:

LC, Belguim, Dutch, Rhineland, Luxemberg, Netherlands, whatever...The Euros backed Hitler, the only NATIONS that really fought the Stigma of the Nazis were the Brits, Russians, & Americans.

You are joking, aren't you?

The RUSSIANS fought with an own ARMY (Wlassow) for the 3rd Reich, not to forget all those hiwi's serving for nearly every Wehrmacht unit on the eastern front.

Even americans and british fought for the Reich: those who followed the "heim ins Reich" call.

EVERY european nation which was attack by germany would have fought on if they would have had an ocean to hide behind like the US / the UK and the navy of a major power.

Hitler was THE MAN in the us as well until he launched WW2. Time magazin voted him "man of the year" in the 1930ies, IBM sold him the computersystem that made the holocaust possible, everyone made pretty good business with the 3rd Reich for a looong time. And untill the 1960ies the US had some very nasty racist practises on their own (blacks are not allowed this, blacks are not allowed that), so tell me, where is the pride? Where were those brave people who fought for their own countrymen in 1940?? They didn't fight for them, and only 20 yeas later SOME did. In the late 30ies they even refused to take jewish refugees (remember the St. Louis incident?).

The UK / US knew pretty soon about what these german butchers did to the unlucky european jews, but did they anything to prevent it? No, they prefered to bomb civilians instead of auschwitz or the railtracks in poland.

I argue with you not to prove that the americans were evil (no, they weren't) but to "defend" those euros who fell under the shadow of the 3rd Reich.

These 666 numbergames are not so important, every generation made them fit for over and over the last thousand years.

Hitler and nazi-germany were extremly evil, but only a little taste of what will come above us all. But thinking too much about this is a waste of time, because the devil is excited not only about those who don't believe in him but about those who fear him too much as well.

Or to say it with PETRA: What are you looking for the devil for when you ought to be looking for the Lord?").

@Liam: there are and there were some german speaking people in the LC, but that is all to say about it. Make a trip to Belgium or better Netherland, take your little LC=germanic speech and wait what happens. Go for it...

Living next to these countries would help to understand this, believe this little german ass over here.

edit:

over 60,000 "unfit" Americans were coercively sterilized, a third of them after Nuremberg declared such practices crimes against humanity

[ January 28, 2004, 12:11 PM: Message edited by: xwormwood ]

[JerseyJohn]

Admins -- Is there some reason page two is so expanded when there isn't a large image distorting the borders? Can such a thing be good?

Great Topic Japinard and Great input by the contributors.

Great Job stirring things up, General Rambo!

There's a fairly old book, The Swatztika Outside Germany, sorry, I don't recall the author, that goes into all the non-German nazi movements. The amazing part is how ineffective most of them were, with only a handful of members, often counted in the dozens even when exaggerated in reports back to Berlin!

The United States had a fairly large Bund movement. Ironically, Hitler did not want it functioning openly, even during the early 1930s; he wanted American public opinion neutral regarding the Reich as he understood it would never be pro-Nazi but the deluded American leader saw himself as a future United States Fuhrer.

The American Bund strongholds were not in Idaho, by the way, but two of my stomping grounds, Long Island, New York and parts of New Jersey, neither of which could be called Nazi territory, they were just places with a lot of Bund members and Nazi summer camps for kids, innocent things like that. Probably it's sheer coincedence that New Jersey is, and has always been, a fascist state!

The German American Bund had it's origin in upstate New York.

Many South American Countries were much more fertile, especially Argentina, where Juan and Evita Peron were openly sympathetic and in receipt of many plundered treasures during the war. Sorry to all you Argentinians, that's a fact. Like Adolf Eichmann, many fugitive Nazis went there after the war and either remained or used it as a springboard to reach even safer havens.

Will return shortly with a take on the original topic, which so far looks to have been covered excellently, particularly by Liam and Avatar ... my apologies to those I failed to mentioned, I've got a hot breakfast becoming cold in the next room and am slightly distracted.

[ January 28, 2004, 07:11 AM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[JerseyJohn]

Sorry for the interruption, back from breakfast and soon to go dig things out of the snow, which isn't very deep -- some damn convalescense!

Baltic States -- many anti-semetics, many attrocities committed by the locals. Much of this was fueled by residual bitterness from the recent and short Russian occupation; German agents succeeded in associating the Jewish population with the Soviets, dooming all of them.

Bulgaria -- they'd have preferred neutrality. As it was they managed to keep their troops out of the Russian front.

Denmark -- thoroughly neutral but with some right wing sympathies.

Greece -- Leery of Italy, sought German protection before Mussolini's debacle, would probably have joined the Axis in a Bulgaria type role. Had strong trade leanings with Britain, but they were too practical to think they could have survived if allied against Germany.

Hungary -- covered below.

Norway -- thoroughly neutral, caught in an impossible situation as both sides were tampering with their territorial rights. The couldn't have joined either side; if Allied they knew that, one way or another, Germany would have wound up conquering them.

Iraq -- Anti-British/French more than pro-Axis, though they'd have joined the Axis to gain true independance.

Portugal-- see below

Romania-- see below

Sweden-- Some German sympathizers, many influential Germans transplanted there after WW I, but they wanted their neutral independance very badly. Economically they had to trade with Germany as they didn't possess space shuttles.

Yugoslavia-- The government was practical enough to know it had to play with Germany. The coup, as was quickly demonstrated, was a very unwise move. Overall, anti-Axis and justifiably mistrustful of Italy, but if handled more inteligently they'd have been a part of the Axis; they needed to follow a policy similar to Spain's, but were not in Franco's strong bargaining position.

I've already determined the following (non-superpowers):

Canada - Allies

Finland - Axis -- in game terms, yes, but not quite historically accurate.

Hungary - Axis -- right from the start. Not necessarily Nazi, but Axis. Unlike Germany and Austria, anti-semitism wasn't a big factor. In 1944 the crazies emerged under German sponsorship, but if left totally independant, Hungarian Jews would have been safe. Like all the rest of that subject it's sickening to think about.

Ireland - Allies -- to an extent. They did not cooperate with the UK in shielding convoys and I've heard from many eyewitnesses that during the nightblitz Irish spotlights remained on all night, pointing toward Luftwaffe targets on the western UK coast. On the flip side, thousands of Southern Irishmen fought for the British, most notably in North Africa. A tough call but I tend to say, though anti-British, they were not pro-Nazi.

Belgium - Allies. Yes, up till 1936 they had a mutual defense agreement with France, then cancelled it when they saw German actually had an army, again!

Netherlands - Allies. Yes, though they'd have preferred to have remained strictly neutral. Many Dutchmen were in fact Nazis and many thousands more became Nazis during the war. Despite this, huge numbers of Hollanders, including women and children, were deliberately killed by their German cousins. More poor bastards to add to that almost infinite list.

Poland - Allies. Sure, after Czhechoslovakia, but up till then there were good relations between that country and Germany. If it hadn't been for Danzig and the idiotic corridor dividing Prussia German diplomacy might have followed a different course despite Hitler's hatred of the Poles. The creation of that corridor at Versailles sealed this country's fate even in the days when Hitler was an obscure and ranting beer hall rabble rouser. If he hadn't have come to power some other, similar expansionist would have, sooner or later, and the elimation of the corridor would have been high on the list of things to be settled.

But, for game purposes, yes, Poland has to be an Allied nation.

Romania - Axis. Yes. Again, not necessarily Nazi, but it had to seek protection against the USSR.

Spain - Axis. Yes, though Franco wisely had no stomach for participation in a major war. As was pointed out in a long forgotten thread, there were also UK investments in Spanish mining concerns, so it had reasons to lean both ways.

Switzerland - Axis. Oh my! The Bankers were, but whenever possible the Swiss people were extremely good to the Jewish refugees who made it through the border check points. Unfortunately, the Swiss Government made it as difficult as possible for them to do so and none, or at best only a trickle, managed to do so after the fall of France.

Regrettably I have to agree with this view.

Turkey - Axis. Yes, they'd have liked to regain lost territory as well as the Southern Caucasus which had been deeded to them in the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk, 1918. Like Spain, their leaders wisely chose to wait till German troops were parading in Moscow and London before committing themselves.

Japinard, Good Luck with the scenario.

BTW, General Rambo, a History Channel show recently said, if added up in the original language, the Beast is 606 and probably Nero. But I'm old fashioned myself and will continue going with 666, which I still insist was a quite common birthmark and nothing for my parents, RIP, to have gotten so worked up over!

[ January 28, 2004, 06:53 AM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[japinard]

JerseyJohn, excellent Reponse!

A few questions though:

The Baltic States were anti-semetic?! I just don't know how the governments could have assoaicated Jews with Russian Communism when Stalin kill just as many as Hitler did, and Stalin killed anyone else who looked the wrong way. I figured the Baltic States would be VERY anti-Soviet, and by 1939's russo-German non aggression act would be clamoring for help from Allied tpye nations who would oppose Stalin and Russia.

Greece: Technically wasn't Greece "Allied" amd against the Axis since Germany invaded and conquered them?

Rambo - Don't forget Stalin. HItelr's deeds are much more well documeneted and talked abou than Stalins... but Stalin was just as bad as Hitler, and maybe even worse.

[JerseyJohn]

Japinard,

Glad you enjoyed it.

The people of the Baltic States were no more and no less anti-Semitic than the people of most other places. When the SS took control it deliberately found as many psychos as it could and put them in uniform or positions of local authority. The result was horrifying, even German SS men were taken aback by what they witnessed.

There is film footage of civilians being pushed through the streets in Latvia, Estonia and Lithuania to be beaten to death publicly by thugs with pipes. In one such photo the madman is standing with a wide grin amid the victims, the ground slick with blood, and he's wearing a support for his lower back!

Because the population was relatively small it was possible for things to go to greater extremes in a shorter time than most other places. Those who weren't butchered by the local collaborators were hastened off to a 19th century fortress where they were machine gunned, and the few who remained were sent to Polish ghettos and from there to death camps.

The link between the Jews and the communists makes no more sense than it does anywhere else, but the lie was not being presented to rational people looking for fair answers. It was being used as justification for criminals looking to legalize murder and confiscation of property. Some of the spoils went to the local collaborators and the rest, or at least as much as the Germans could document, went to the SS.

Some of these photos, including the one I've just described, are on the Internet, but this is one time I'll decline posting it.

Greece was actually about to sign a treaty with Germany when Italy began it's inept invasion, in the mountains, during the rainy season! Mussolini surprised everyone, including Hitler. He strode into Hitler's HQ for a meeting and announced, with a big smile, "Fuhrer, we are on the march!" From what I've read Hitler said nothing at all but went into a prolonged twitching fit!

Like most of the others, Greece would have preferred neutrality; it's treaty with Germany would have made it a non-enemy rather than an ally. Yugoslavia -- members of the same family ruled both countries! -- signed a similar agreement, but in large part reacting to the Greek invasion, the Yugoslavs themselves rebelled against the arrangement.

Some time back we had a great Thread, I believe it was begun by Dalmation Partisan that went into many of these issues and dealt extensively with Yugoslavia. I'll try to find it a little later.

Need to go offline for a few hours before then, really enjoying this thread, glad you started it.

[ January 28, 2004, 08:47 AM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[Liam]

Very detailed information John:

As usual! Glad to see you back in condition! I hate to say it but despite America's lovely wealthy Capitolist System if you're ever on a street or sick, WATCH OUT! You may if you're fortunate get our Democratic Side rather than our Republican. Soon I'm going to face a similar Wraith between both sides.

--

Most of Europe during WW2 was still living back in an old Faery Tale. I think that people tend to forget that they're not modern peoples from the 1940s in a large portion of Europe. The Germans were probably some of the more Modern Peoples along with the French Dutch and English. Even once upon a time the Russians were attempting to move forward if it wasn't for Intellectual hating Communists. Problem is when you motivate the Germans into a Brainwashed society of Swatika Saluting Stupified folks you get Pure and Utter Chaos. Most European Nations showed some disdain for the Jews and Gypsies. Some to the Slavs as well<Even though this shocks me as Hitler saw them as the next Factor> Fact is most of these Ethnic groups always had gotten Grief. The Turks started off Ethnic Cleansing During WW1 with the Armenians.

Don't forget the Vatican Aiding Nazis to get to S.America. Lots of guilt to go around but the fact is intolerance is a pretty common thing. To this day, in society most don't accept what's different from them. Just now it seems more focused on Muslim and Christian hatred. It's in our survival instinct to procreate our own Species and exterminate anything that isn't close to our own Genes, it's very Scientific. Just in Modern times it's time to shed away the ancient crap cause sex isn't rape anymore and we don't need to hunt for food anymore we grow it. Times have changed just some people haven't... We'll probably never have a Eutopian world of Tolerance and Free Love but we can aim for that I think..

Some Germans didn't like Hitler, fact is most of these Germans were sent to re-education Camps. For as much as it's worth I hear it was a percent or two. I'm certian there were many many others that were afraid of him too! Sorry but when it comes to your family, friends and such... some ethnic group comes second! We're only human and Europeans of the 40s were only human too. Some sick stuff but it's not like it's anything new. As I said before, Intolerance is ancient.

[Liam]

Worm:

I heard the stories that the local Garrisons in Holland or Southern Belgium would take their liberties with the local woman no matter what age unless you were lucky enough to be part German or speak it. Don't know how widespread this was, but I don't hear anything on that level with the American or British Armies. Acts so cruel. Food was hard to come by, most of the children born in that era lost their teeth. Few precious ways to get food. No candles or lights allowed at night. I'm sure life wasn't a walk in the park for these occuppied nations although hardly as bad as what the Russians and Slavs faced under the Swatika. Hitler didn't have plans to relocate Germans to Holland, Belgium or France.

Though he was pretty clear about clearing large tracts of Poland through Russia for Germany.

I'm sure of what you say is true, though there ethnic Ideology I'm not sure about. I think what Rambo is saying is that most Europeans hated Jews and the other groups. Not 100% true, partly true! I've spoken to many many "Europeans" and lived in Germany and England. Even Churchill didn't like the Jews much.

Ironically<as I once said before> aside from Warsaw the 2nd largest Jewish population was in Chicargo.

[jon_j_rambo]

Okay, time for so more detail about the topics:

Stalin --- Of course I know about Stalin's purges, he was a butcher, a murderer, & a scum-bag Communist. I've seen the end of the movie "Patton", we're we should have drivin to Moscow at the end of WW-2. I also read Orwell's "Animal Farm", I depisre Communism too, so my comments about the Euro's Nazis does not elevate Commies above Nazis.

America's Slavery Sin --- Hey, I'm from the North, ancestory is from the hills of Pennsylvania, my parents have a 75-acres farm exactly 100 miles North of Gettysburg. We fought Lee, Jackson, & the rest of that rebel trash...can you say John Brown, John Brown, John Brown?

IBM sold Hitler a Supercomputer --- What year? What product? I've heard this before but never any details. What is the technology? All I know about back then is the "Al Turing" & the Turing Machine technology that helped the Brits with Radar. Maybe IBM sold Hitler sorry technology as a feint. Whatever they bought sure didn't help Goering's FlyNazis. Please supply details, because I'm actually interested. Not so much about the Nazi/USA debate, but what was technology like then, if it's a "Supercomputer".

666 numbergames --- there's plenty of formulas adding up to 666...The Pope, Bill Gates, JFK, etc. Just a conversation piece. The KJV is the real deal.

America's Nazis & Evil --- We've got plenty of whackos...Charles Manson, KKK, David Kuresh, Jim Jones, Columbine, Skin Heads, Abortion, Drug Addicts, Bums, Enron, CEO stealing cash, exporting jobs, athesists, maggots, liars, lawyers, thieves, drunks, etc..........History books show that Nations fall. If USA gets hit with WMD, we'll fold like a cheap lawnchair.

Future predicitions by the Legend --- There will be a One-World-Order in the future. Nationalism has been tried & failed. People are more interested in creating a "Tower of Babel" & "Can't we all just get along". English will become the language of the World, if not already. Paper money will not exist in 50 years, plus there will be a common currency. Not necessarily the dollar, maybe something new. China & will become the next Superpower............I know for a fact an army of 200,000,000 will come from the "Kings of the East" & march down the Euprates. Gee, I wonder where I read that?

Rambo knows the Past

Rambo knows the Present

Rambo knows the Future

[xwormwood]

Originally posted by jon_j_rambo:

America's Slavery Sin --- Hey, I'm from the North, ancestory is from the hills of Pennsylvania, my parents have a 75-acres farm exactly 100 miles North of Gettysburg. We fought Lee, Jackson, & the rest of that rebel trash...can you say John Brown, John Brown, John Brown?

Sorry, i miss this John Brown hint, probably because i know to little about the civil war and it's time.

My point was not the slavery, it was the way the blacks were treated in 1940 p.e. and the attitude of some people who asked "how could the germans / the euros accept this unbelievable nazi crimes, they should have done something". While it is easy to judge people when you never were in their shoes it is quite interesting that the same people obviously gave a rats ass for their own people who were simply born with a "wrong" skincolor.

Originally posted by jon_j_rambo:

IBM sold Hitler a Supercomputer --- What year? What product? I've heard this before but never any details. What is the technology? All I know about back then is the "Al Turing" & the Turing Machine technology that helped the Brits with Radar. Maybe IBM sold Hitler sorry technology as a feint. Whatever they bought sure didn't help Goering's FlyNazis. Please supply details, because I'm actually interested. Not so much about the Nazi/USA debate, but what was technology like then, if it's a "Supercomputer".

IBM and the Holocaust: The Strategic Alliance between Nazi Germany and America's Most Powerful Corporation

Originally posted by jon_j_rambo:

Future predicitions by the Legend --- There will be a One-World-Order in the future. Nationalism has been tried & failed. People are more interested in creating a "Tower of Babel" & "Can't we all just get along". English will become the language of the World, if not already. Paper money will not exist in 50 years, plus there will be a common currency. Not necessarily the dollar, maybe something new. China & will become the next Superpower............I know for a fact an army of 200,000,000 will come from the "Kings of the East" & march down the Euprates. Gee, I wonder where I read that?

Rambo knows the Past

Rambo knows the Present

Rambo knows the Future

You should give this band / project a try, honestly