Counters to the revamped aggressive allied opening ?

[hellraiser]

How it is done:

In anticipation of a standard axis turn 2 DOW of LC, Allies prepare a very powerful turn 2 counter using French HQ, 2 UK armies as well as the RAF (and maybe the surviving polish AF) and the 2 carriers available. London corps is transported in France. RAF gets placed west of London but not in the intercepting range of Brussels. Carriers are sent south ready to get involved if the rolls get sucky on the ground. A british BB is moved south as well.

French AF and BBs get disbanded and HQ is bought; French armies take position near LC border - description of allied turn 1.

Turn 2 - Axis

Axis DOW LC and occupy it using a standard attack - usually it is done using tank, army, 3 AFs. After LC falls, Axis have 4 troops in LC, the western and south-western hexes from brussels being occupied by corps and tank respectively, in contact with french defenders.

Turn 2 - Allies

French corps wich in the previous turn occupied a M line hex gets moved in Paris; uk corps gets opped in its place;

the 2 uk armies land and kill the corps west of brussels;

3 french armies supported by hq hit and kill the tank south-west of brussels; the spot is filled with a french army which has the option to hit another german piece (vs the army southe east of brussels, it has usually a 2-3 assumed roll)

PAF, RAF, carriers and BB will intervene should the 2 uk armies fail to kill the corps or the 3 french armies fail to kill the tank.

Usually it works 7-8 out of 10 times.

Now, if Poland campaign drags on for 4-5 turns, Axis can be in a very nasty situation, not being able to op move much troops in the west plus not able to enjoy the much needed plunder.

A long poland will buy the western allies time to build a powerful defence. They can even push their luck , attacking with unsupported RAF and/or carriers to further damage the LWs. Due to low strength (and obviously, readiness) LWs won't be as effective and one should not be surprised that the rolls vs allied ground units get messy.

Any axis units advancing in LC is exposed to a 3 hex attack which leads to horrendous losses.

Now. Is there a feasible counter to this?

The only I play tested so far sounds like this:

Turn 1 Axis

Axis do not attempt the polish breakthru and move Runstedt, 3 AFs, 2 tanks near LC. Von Bock will support either an AF or a tank while supporting 4 troops in poland as well. (Von Bock is moved south from its initial position). German troops in poland will maintain a contiguous front to avoid cut-offs by kamikaze polish corps.

Basically, the setup for LC invasion turn 2 is:

Army in town, 2 corps on the river south of the town, tank on the river north of the town, AF in the northernmost town, the rest of the AFs placed in striking range of brussels, supported of course, second tank two hexes back from the river, supported as well.

The rolls can favour axis, the army having a great chance to hit for 4 or even 5 damage the brussels corps while AFs can finish it off. Tank will occupy the capitol, the second tank gets the forest hex and 2 corps are opp-ed in the open west and southwest of brussels as cannon fodder.

A corps is placed near kiel for the turn 3 invasion of denmark - 3 AFs, 2 ships and kiel corps using landing bonus to rape the danish defender.

In poland, germans reduce the defenders, building some nice xp in the process.

Should the allies use this cool aggro strategy and kill the 2 corps, all the remaining troops in LC are supported by Rundstedt and all of the 3 AFs are supported as well (Runstedt 2 and Bock 1). They can counterattack succesfully in turn 3, killing everything that moved in the open hex below Brussels.

The fact is you can't avoid losing 2 units if the allies go for this opening but instead of losing a tank and corps, you lose 2 corps while retaining counter-attacking capability for turn 3.

Any other ideas?

[ April 06, 2005, 03:57 AM: Message edited by: hellraiser ]

[hellraiser]

I am not saying that Axis gets stopped in France but they would sustain very heavy losses which will make life a lot easier for allies in the long run. Axis can get Paris in July if the allied player wishes to save a lot of UK assets.

For axis, losing both tanks and a couple of armies along with a host of corps, shouldn't come as a surprise. This may disrupt the timing for the Cookie Cutter or force axis to invest in techs later than usual.

[Dragonheart]

Well my standart attack is a good mean ag this tactic but it cant prevent the loss of the corps and the tank---> you know my standardattack

There are several possibilities and things you have to do.

- Let rundstet lead the western attack is a must

- damage polish AF with army is a must (no corps attack!!)

- Try to perform a LC lite version with 1 corps+1 Army+3 AF (loss of only 2 corps then but the risk of a failed LC)

- Let the things roll and prepare for a hard battle in LC

- in any case operate a strong unit to the west in round 2

- Try to kill either denmarc or Poland early

- Attack the mine is also a possibiliy, maybe you are lucky and Allied player cant buy the HQ or must scrap also the corps

- dont push the bids over 215 MPP

By the way your tournament opponent opend an AAR Tread --->

http://www.panzerliga.de/dt/docs/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1260

and this guy learned to speak your language meanwhile :eek:

[Sombra]

Hellraiser, I see you frustrated Rambo with this kind of attack. Possible counters:

- If Axis Breakthrough in Poland round 1 then simply take some heavy peices to LC for counter attacks if the tanks doesn´t survive. Things will get ugly for a short time but the axis willl prevail.

- No Poland breakthrough Switch HQs Book should make an attack from the north and Rundstedt should take command in the west.

Simply don´t let the Allies build up their strengh in LC.

I love to play this aggressive move as Allies because most players still don´t prepare for an aggressive allied attack.

[hellraiser]

thanks, i registered for PL and posted the reply for the opponent dude.

just go there and confirm that -40 handicap is ok since i don't kknow the guy but you know us both.

On topic:

LC lite is out of the question ... if it fails, you won't move back the french from the Rhine - no LC plunder is gay.

If you breakthru in poland, usually you use runstedt to support stuff over there so Bock is in charge with LC invasion.

If you hit the PAF, that's ok, allies will use the cash (otherwise used for opping PAF in london) to transport cannuck army. Indeed allies have one less air strike which sometimes can make a difference.

Hitting the mine is the stuff I use most. It has 50-50% chances to succeed in lowering the FAF to 8 which means allies needs to disband the french corps in order to buy the HQ. If they decide to disband it, they can still perform the move but the empty hex where the tank was, cannot be occupied. Not bad, not good because if you op another unit in that hex, it can be destroyed next turn as well. But indeed, you have higher chances that french armies sustain additional losses, making them more vulnerable to a killing strike.

[hellraiser]

@Sombra

yep, I saw it first at you and it came as a surprise since i really did not expect to use the carriers vs LWs in LC. You were prepared to take heavy damage with the carrier and it paid off.

The problem is:

If axis manage polish breakthru, I will most likely refrain from using this strategy.

If they fail the breakthrough, it is more than advisable since the polish campaign can turn into a nightmare, lasting sometimes for 4+ turns. This amount of time is crucial for the uk/french - they can buy new pieces or reinforce the existing ones.

There is a nother problem: you said you would op some heavy pieces to counter in LC but for this you need AFs as well. You have to take denmark as well otherwise things can get stinky. Either you hit denmark with AFs in turn 3 or attempt to repel the allied pieces in LC...decisions, decisions

[Dragonheart]

LC lite is not out of question as with rundstet you have a chance of 7-16 hits which is a fair chance.

Maybe we can play it out in a regular game tonite?

Meanwhile i answered your question in the PL-Forum.

[Sombra]

Hellraiser never said that it isn´t a good move for the allies. Try it against a newbie.

First he lets you take the LC always with a Dutsch Gambit. After 2-3 frustrating games he asks you what to do. You show him the 2nd. turn Axis attack on LC. He says alright I got it but gets creamed again with an super aggressive alleid counter. Life is fun.l

Back to topic:

-Yes attacking french mine is nice. If succesful, you don´t have to worry about this counter anymore.

-LC lite:D&H I agree with Hellraiser here. You can lose your game as axis already in the beginning to easily. I know you love LC lite.

- Rundstedt to the West should work quite well

[ April 06, 2005, 06:02 AM: Message edited by: Sombra ]

[Dragonheart]

Rookie-cutting should be punished Sombra.

Imagine i would have done this with you when you were at the beginning of your SC-life. You would have stopped playing immedeately and would have thrown the game into the waste-box.

[ April 06, 2005, 06:02 AM: Message edited by: Dragonheart ]

[hellraiser]

Sombra, you're evil and mean ...

DH - catch you on ICQ a tad later after I get home; I guess tonite it's ok for me to play.