CM:BB Any change in LOS tool?

[Username]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Priest:

Did folks string out colored rope before they moved in WWII? Hmm did not know that. Well I guess you learn something everyday! (note sarcasm!)

And your reality setting is fine if it can be implemented without hurting the rest of the game and/or impacting BTS's goals for system requirements but I would put it down very low on the "things to do" list. While it may be unrealistic what really do you gain from doing it. Also as long as you can "fly" all over the map I can tell contour and such from level 4 most of the time so big deal. Heck if you use certain grass textures you can tell contours in even the top down views so do not give me a speech on how not using view 1 has anything to do with "scouting" a maps "sweet spots" because it does not.

So to achieve your non-gamey totally realistic LOS rule we would have to program an entire system, not allow a free roaming camera, and lock the mod community out of terrain features. Yeah sounds like a well thought out super idea. (again note sarcasm)

Sorry Username but your idea does not wash. Too many other factors can achieve what you are trying to change and you are targeting the wrong culprit as view one is a "fun" view for watching explosions and taking screenshots (all I really use it for) and the LOS tool which is simple and easy and wonderfully informative.

Now I agree using the LOS tool anywhere is ludicrous you need to have a unit there to use it.

So Username let me clear up one last thing. CMBO is not your game, it is not my game, it is BTS's game (as I stated in my post) and my only concern is that Steve and Charles do not listen to such ignorant posts and comments from folks such as....well lets not start a flame war!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Notice the royal "we". "We" would have to program..". Then he chides on about how its not my game or his game..yeah, its a worn out record at this point. Speaking for the group and then telling others not too.

Troops in WWII would instruct people to follow a path. The colored line is a very good abstraction of that. People use LOS to see things. The LOS tool is a very good model of that. So your sarcasm is maybe making you feel all good and smirky but its based on nothing. Its actually kind of funny because it makes you come off as someone that wants to start a flame war. Not me. As I have said in other posts, giving orders to areas out of the LOS should be limited.

My reality setting is, again let me repeat, an option. Lets repeat that. Optional. Use at the discretion of the agreeing players who feel they have a certain skill level. There is always a pontificating flamey guy like yourself missing that point.

Players viewing movies can go down and take pictures and watch 'splosions. Thats not during the orders phase is it? Kind of missed that distinction in your rush to be so sarcastic and flamey didnt you? Sure you play the game much? Maybe you just like watching explosions a little too many times Quaker.

So let me clear up one thing. CM is anyones game that buys it. BTS has already said that they value and use the customers input. As any good company would. You dont speak for the company. Your posts doesnt count for anyone but yourself.

Anyway, nice to see that that you missed the point of the detached LOS from the committed move. Or does that get your sarcastic flamey tendancies in a bunch too?

Have a nice day flamey.

Lewis

[Priest]

You know it is funny that you say that, seeing as I am one of the folks who has started many a thread about not flaming and also have strived and apologized many a time for my errors. Labeling me as a flame war particpant is really sad as many long time readers know that I am not. Too bad you missed the boat on that one too.

Hmm and the "WE" statement that I am referring to is us, the forum community, as a whole. If you were to read many of the early (demo) threads you would see that the greater majority of folks (that is the WE I am referring to) did praise BTS's efforts.

Next I already stated that BTS takes it's customers very seriously but as I said it is still a business.

Also I said your idea is fine if it is optional (did you even read my post)unless it impacts the game in a poor way.

And what is really funny is that I do have Quake III on loan from a friend. Of course it is to play two mods that use the Quake III engine and have nothing to do with Quake at all. In fact I have never even started up Quake but am an anime fan so I am waiting for a DBZ and Gundam mod. Both of which have a complete physics re-write of the engine.

Finally and probably most hilarously is that you state that one should not be able to issue orders outside of LOS. Now if I understand that correctly that means that if I have a tank and I want to move it over a hill I have to move it to the crest of the hill first? Then next turn I can move it down the hill because I can then see it? So instead of cresting the hill I simply move up it and then stop and then move down it? Because if I issue move orders over the crest of the hill then I am issuing orders out of line of site aren't I? That is what you said isn't it? LOS from a committed move? So I can look from waypoints after I hit a "confirm" button? And how does this help the fact that already if I order my troops over a hill and there is a COY waiting hidden on the reverse slope hidden my troops get cut to shreds. The fact is that even enemy troops in LOS properly positioned (hidden) are still out of sight. More importantly when did we start trying to outmanuever terrain instead of the enemy? Many commanders knew where good ambush spots were within an area but did not know if the enemy had taken advantage of those spots. It is up to us as the player to find those spots. Does this mean that we zoom around at level 1, well maybe, I know I do not but it is possible. Is it worth changing and possibly mucking up the game (u think this system will fit right into the game engine or even be executed properly)? I doubt it seriously.

Username I did a search on the many other threads that you have chimed in on from way back in the FIONN days. Ahhhhh the good old times. Anyways I am still trying to look for the response on one thread from Steve who told someone (just who was that?) that if he/she did not like CMBO's presentation to go make their own game and the person said they would or something to that extent, of course up until that point they said they could make a better game. Hmm still waiting it would seem!

So in summary (because it seems you did not fully read my last post)

1.) Your proposal saying that I like to flame folks is laughable considering my history on this forum.

2.) Still have not heard a solid arguement of why this LOS/Committed orders optional rule is so needed or special.

3.) I am a very picky game player and choose few games in which i play which span a number of genre's none of which is FPS unless you include mecha tactical combat and fighting games along with Rogue Spear to the FPS genre. In fact the only games on my PC right now are CMBO, Max Payne, and Day of Defeat.

Really if you think my "gaming" background is suspect please feel free to send me a setup file. This "Quaker" would be happy to entertain your superior "Grog" intellect even though I probably research and study WWII as closely or as much as anyone on this board.

[ 08-16-2001: Message edited by: Priest ]

[Username]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Priest:

[QB]

Finally and probably most hilarously is that you state that one should not be able to issue orders outside of LOSQB]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Look. I didnt even finish reading the rest of your post after this. You know what is funny? Nothing. Its dull. This whole Tit-fer-tat discourse with people like you. Its actually worse. Its a bore.

I never said never. I said limit. Theres such a big difference that I can't get into it. You might misconstrue that I would want further discourse with you. You want to speak for a group? Put some effort into reading before you write.

I am dropping from this thread unless someone with reading comprehension jumps in.

Lewis

[Priest]

Uhm you started this line of discussion Lewis not me. I stated I like the LOS how it is and you choose to disect the idea. I replyed and by your third post you were attacking my character not my idea. Also after re-reading your posts you did not once say "limited". You did imply it but it could have gone either way. Also I never said "never". I asked questions that you did not answer. Instead you state that this whole discussion is stupid and you are no longer going to participate. Well for the last two posts I have been trying to discuss the LOS issue and you have seen fit to instead try to insult me and then back out of the discussion. The fact that you only "sped read" through the thread should have prevented you from commenting to harshly to anyone on the thread. Ideas are about presentation and yours in this case is lacking. You have yet to answer questions that I have brought up. You have wasted an oppurtunity to have another understand your ideas. Too bad.

Here is another question, do you plot one or two movements (one pending and one confirmed) or do you turn the pending into the confirmed? Is the rest of the map greyed out? These are legitimate questions because unless they hide the map a great deal I am sure many players can judge terrain and layout of the land as I have stated before. How do you plan to stop people from using grass textures and other sources (gridded lines) to manuever around this (if the map is not "greyed" out). The point is to stop "terrain scouting" is it not (it is the only thing this would hinder)? Am I missing something? Instead of trying to put me down how about explaining it. Oh but that is right you are no longer going to answer me or anyone else you feel is.....what intelligent and will challenge your ideas.

Lewis in the majority of the posts I have read after searching the archive it seems that a good deal of them deal with complaints with the game as it stands and changes you wish to impose. Also in many posts you are aggressive towards others who question you. Do not know what is up with that but it is interesting that you blame me for the similiar things when it is quite the opposite it seems.

In retrospect I think the splode line in the third post (i think) was funniest. Lewis feel free to send me that setup file and you can start taking pictures of your tanks sploding from any level of viewing or LOS you want.

Hey Germanboy I think I found my Tero

[Chad Harrison]

just my opinion, but i would love to see this integrated into the game. i had thought of this awhile back while trying to figure out my units LOS over and over again. it got very old, but its bearable.

i dont think that its unrealistic to use a tool such as this. is it any more unrealistic to drag the LOS tool all over the map and check that? thats what i do right now and the only difference between doing it that way, and having a way to SHOW you what you can see is that i spend more time doing it. and any soldier on the battle field whos in good order can keep tract of what he can and cant see. and a squad with 10 men could have one person facing backwards; isnt that getting a little too detailed?

if its a huge deal on the computer to code it or whatever, dont worry bout it BTS and work elsewhere! if it is possible, i dont think it would detract from realism because all it will do is save us time, and make the game smoother!; it would NOT give us any more information than we already have.

just my 2 cents . . .

[Triumvir]

Why not follow the Steel Beasts methodology for the LOS tool? You can only use LOS when setting up, and only when inside your setup zone. You can already mimic this by placing your units in the desired positions and doing a LOS look around, but a 360 view _would_ be easier to handle than the current single line for LOS.

A behavioural outline would be:

1) Place unit in desired location.

2) Select unit

3) Choose LOS tool

4) Move mouse up and down to increase and decrease the LOS distance from the selected unit

5) Areas within LOS would be blue, out of LOS would be black, in LOS but out of firing arc would be red, same as current CMBO.

I agree with Germanboy and Username; being able to plunk a marker down and calculate LOS from it is an unrealistic decision.

When we dug defensive positions on a hill, it was deceptively easy from standing height to see what is and isn't visible from a position. But the second you go down to the height you'll be in a foxhole, all that nice open ground suddenly turns into dead ground. How much harder it must be to calculate LOS from six hundred metres away!

I also think that the 360 arc is probably too much information when actually issuing orders; but I don't think it's a distorting abstraction when doing setup.

Finally, I don't think that there's a chance in hell that this'll make it into CMBB. But I would like to see it in CM II, as I think it's a worthy item.

[Priest]

Triumvir you have a good idea there but I think it takes away from the skill of the game. The fact that it takes some "skill" but not too much is a nice balance in the current LOS system that I like. I feel that if you use the system you describe you are giving it away somehow. It would not prevent me from playing the game mind you but I would feel it lost an inherent good quality.

[Triumvir]

Priest, you are of course entitled to your opinions and BTS's hard task is to balance out all our opinions and their creative decisions and come up with some kind of synthesis that leaves everyone roughly equally unhappy.

Please note, though, that my suggestion applies only to setup, and not to actual gameplay and that everything in there is currently duplicable using existing code. It just makes setting up a bit faster; something that, if you play a lot of TCP games, is not to be sneezed at.

I generally don't like your examples of games not changing; first off, all of them are sequels, and have included refinements. (What's a refinement? A change I agree with!) But think of Will Wright -- from Sim City, we went to SimTower and The Sims. As for sticking with the same schlock, look at Star Control going to Star Control 2 -- a completely different game. When they moved to Star Control 3, it was the same schlock as SC2, but not as well done.

It all comes down to implementation; change for change's sake is not a bad thing, but it has to be done right. If Interceptor had had a better tie with the other X-COM games and hadn't been quite such a buggy bland piece of crap, I'd have _loved_ it.

[Username]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Triumvir:

[QB]

I agree with Germanboy and Username; being able to plunk a marker down and calculate LOS from it is an unrealistic decision.

[QB]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Weelllll I didnt say that either. oohboy.

Heres my position:

During setup, yes, check LOS to your hearts content FROM YOUR SETUP AREA! If there was a tool that would highlight all areas seen DURING setup, yep, I am all for it

During play, I dont think the tero or Priest is correct. I dont see the point of doing LOS from places that YOU ARENT AT OR HAVENT COMMITED TO. If you read what I wrote, I think that you should have to designate a move that you cant take back BEFORE DOING REMOTE-LOS checks from the end of that move.

I dont think that squatting down to mook about during play is any different than having a LOS tool that is remote. If anything, tero and Priest are in cahoots.

Just my opinions. Dont really care all that much what people think about them. cant say I am inpressed with people that like things the way they are.

Lewis

[Priest]

I agree with you on the whole "change" issue, my statements were to prove a point that change is not always good, and of course no change is also not always good. The games you point out are excellent examples. One note is that i am talking about sequels though, CMBB, CMII engined games based in WWII, and such. As always a game (and many other things in life) can become better but I believe that the Combat Mission series is already so good that I would hope for evolution not revolution in the development of the game.

[Tripps]

seems to me this thread has broken into 4 or so "groups"

1. those that would like to see the current LOS tool givin the abillity (esp during setup) to cover a wider arc, thus saving time.

2. those that would like a 'reverse' LOS tool, to see where a particular area can be seen from.

3. those that would like more recon, before a game, ie, this hill has a AT gun on it, or, 20% of the enemies force disposition etc

4. those that just seem to take BTS's side and shoot down any ideas they have so far rejected, makin it all personal in the process.

aside from all the exagerations (which are just ways of gettin ppl's points across, not to be taken literally in their only meaning)

there has been so good ideas, worthy of discussion.

well, all i can is that i'm all for number 1, number 2 not so much, 3 we're gonna have to just live with, and 4 just outright sucks, the whole purpose of these forums is to talk about things like this, so BTS can get a feel for things, generate new ideas and share experiences, i dont care if its been discussed before, its being discussed again, and if you dont want to go over it again, dont read the damn posts!! especially those that just post 'been there, read the posts, brought the t-shirt, go away', if your gonna have a viewpoint coming from previous posts, at least have the decency to include quotes that would raise up the level of discussion, not just shoot down those that are really just trying to think of ways to improve the game, no one here has critisied the game in a bad way, its all been constructive, and whats wrong with that eh?

its not as easy as sitting down and discussing over a cup of tea aspects of a game we all enjoy (i hope, thats why your here right!! :eek: ) we have to post these words that are hard to get the message about without inflections in voice and gestures and diagrams etc so lets all chill, forget your personal rivalries, and discuss these things, i dont care much for that reverse LOS tool, but i'm not about to blast Tero for it for whatever reason, i'll consider it, then give a counter opinion if i feel so, but to make it personal and make fun of it is just childish and smacks of problems in our real world. if you go back to the first page of this thread its awesome, good points and counter points, until ppl came in and got all up on there high horse and really turned it into a slug fest.

ok, i better stop, thats my speel for the day!

[Priest]

Just to clear something up I am not in favor of a "remote LOS tool" but in favor of what we have now. And I too am against people who say do not discuss this but in this thread I stated my opinion and Lewis chose to attack the thought and then get personal. Fine whatever that is old.

More importantly I find it disturbing that Lewis stated that he has no repect for those of us who agree with how it is now, so Lewis do you not respect BTS? Hmm but then again you will not answer. Again too bad.

Tripps

As I have stated I think that any game can be inmproved but I think this should be low on the totem pole as the system in place works and I do not think we can implement a system that will work without hurting another area of the game at this point.

[Username]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Priest:

More importantly I find it disturbing that Lewis stated that he has no repect for those of us who agree with how it is now, so Lewis do you not respect BTS? Hmm but then again you will not answer. Again too bad.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have no 'repect'? When did I say that?

I said:

"Just my opinions. Dont really care all that much what people think about them. cant say I am impressed with people that like things the way they are."

I again ask that you concentrate on your reading comprehension.

Notice that there are no people here complaining in threads "I want things to go back they were in 1.04!". Kind of makes you think doesnt it?

Seems like change is good.

Lewis

Lewis

[Tripps]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Priest:

Tripps

As I have stated I think that any game can be inmproved but I think this should be low on the totem pole as the system in place works and I do not think we can implement a system that will work without hurting another area of the game at this point.[/QB]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

note: thats the way to reply

oh yeah, i dont disagree it works, and yeah it prolly would be low on the totem pole as you put it would be just a way for people like me to speed up their turns, esp in setup phases (gawd i spend hours.... ) mucking about with LOS maybe i can get a faster cpu in my head that can think faster

interested to know why you think it would compromise another area of the game? i'm talking about the current los tool (say, 1 degree wide) being, say 45/90/180 degrees wide, or something like that, y'know?

the only couple reasons 'i' think it wont be implemented in the future is 1. more important things to do. like we already reckoned, and 2. processor hit, but maybe it can be optional? current LOS tool, and expanded LOS tool?

anyhoo, hit me back, tell me what you reckon

[Priest]

You are right Lewis and I apologize I was wrong. You never mentioned respect and I am sorry.

So you saying you are not impressed with BTS then? They do seem to like it (they defended their position in other threads concerning LOS) and as far as I can tell no change has been scheduled for CMBB so you are not impressed with them. Good to know.

Oh yeah and you responded. Hmm!

For the record I am very impressed with BTS and the work they have done. Considering the size of the team and the product produced it is an amazing project indeed.

[ 08-17-2001: Message edited by: Priest ]

[Priest]

Oh yeah and thanks for the good words Tripps. I do try to hold a discussion whenever possible. Understanding others and their ideas can only enhance the community.

[ 08-17-2001: Message edited by: Priest ]

[Username]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Priest:

So you saying you are not impressed with BTS then? They do seem to like it (they defended their position in other threads concerning LOS) and as far as I can tell no change has been scheduled for CMBB so you are not impressed with them. Good to know.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think I am seeing the trend. You like to try to put words into other peoples mouths. Whether I am impressed with anyone, respect anything, believe in the bogeyman, has no bearing on the thread. Your insistance on trying to make trouble is palpable and I suspect you have some sort of personality disorder (but seeing you are from CA, thats understandable). How about I just ignore you and you go on with your meandering rabble rousing?

Its funny that you went on to say in the next thread:

"Understanding others and their ideas can only enhance the community."

So please undersand me. I don't want anything to do with you. If you can't concentrate on the subjects in the thread that have bearing on the game, then fine. Please dont fixate on me because its coming off a little strange.

Good luck.

Lewis

[ 08-17-2001: Message edited by: Username ]

[Priest]

Hehe I would but you keep speaking to me about unrelated issues from your very first post.

And if you notice I am speaking on the subject to everyone else, but seeing as you could not keep on target for more than a couple of sentences throughout this entire thread since posting in response to my original very non-assuming simple statement it seems it is you that needs the luck

And I would not worry about my "attention" given to you when actually you are more of a distraction.

Also do not accuse me of putting words in your mouth, instead think before you speak. You said you were impressed with no one who likes things the way they are, I simply asked if you we then not impressed with BTS because they seem to like the game the way it is? What is so wrong with that? Answer the question instead of trying to back down with a big bunch of machismo for a shield.

Just my thoughts.

[Priest]

Oh btw Lewis I like the CA personal attack it seems to add something. Hmmm showing your true colors are we?

[Username]

So please undersand me. I don't want anything to do with you. If you can't concentrate on the subjects in the thread that have bearing on the game, then fine. Please dont fixate on me because its coming off a little strange.

[Tero]

>I could have sworn I've seen German

>fusilier companies available.

And what recce-related benefits do they get over the, say, Volksgrenadier companies ?

Can you think of any RL company level special formations that relate to recce that are NOT in the game ?

>Plenty of other recce units also (jeeps,

>Greyhounds, 234s, ect.).

And how many gamey recce uses have been racked up to date in connection with these vehicles ?

>Given deeper QB maps, greater starting

>distance between forces, and enough turns,

>this could be done.

Why did BTS deem recce "beyond the scope of CM world" and then exclude any and all pre-game data realistically and viably derived from pre-battle battlefield tactical recce ?

>But frankly, I don't see what any of this

>has to do with the LOS tool.

Two different things really. Recce information is one issue, being able to issue precision orders more realistically in a world of abstractions and approximations another. But they are related.

>As for being able to use the LOS tool

>without it being anchored to a unit, this

>has been shot down by BTS more than once as

>too unrealistic.

And it is not TOO unrealistic to have your unit go beyond the cover and protection provided by a terrain feature just because the player has given a precision order to go to a specific location (waypoint) that overshoots the cover by a mere meter ? Just because the player can not get accurate enough bearings on the terrain in which the waypoint is set.

Why are the orders made absolute if the world they operate in is a world of abstractions and approximations ?

[ 08-17-2001: Message edited by: tero ]

[Priest]

Just to clarify something about recon in CM. There is a difference between strategic recon and tactical recon. The recon (as I have understood it) that BTS is referring to (again as I have understood it) it of the strategic type. In the tactical situation it is fine to send a half squad to probe a copse of trees or a M8 to move slightly advance of the armor formation.

As far as gamey tactics go I believe it has less to do with the units in the game and more to do with the players playing the game.

[lcm1947]

Well, I agree it would be easier but I personally like the present system. The reason being that it is a lot of work sometimes but if you had the easier system wouldn't that kind of make it unreal or maybe I should say too easy? Now wait a minute before you say " what the hell is he talking about Yes we want it easy." Well, maybe you wouldn't. It might make the game too easy and too fast and where's the fun in that. CM would become just like all the other games. Wham Bam and the game is done. Just my thoughts.

[Tero]

Originally posted by Priest:

Just to clarify something about recon in CM. There is a difference between strategic recon and tactical recon. The recon (as I have understood it) that BTS is referring to (again as I have understood it) it of the strategic type.

I agree. But for the life of me I can not believe strategic recce was confined in identifying the enemy forces only. How could SACEUR and the different level commanders plan ahead if they did not receive (and perhaps more importantly distribute) recce data on the terrain features in the prospective areas of operations. As for tactical recce, I have always thought identifying terrain that permit or deny avenues of advance was of prime importance for both the defender and the attacker.

In the tactical situation it is fine to send a half squad to probe a copse of trees or a M8 to move slightly advance of the armor formation.

That goes without saying.

How about this for an idea (for all I know it might have been floated around before but I have not seen it before ): the CM 3D map is blurred beyond the LOS of the attacker has from the set up zone (all featured beyond major elevation changes) as a standard part of FOW while the defender gets to see the entire map clearly. Even in a case the LOS is excellent across the board the attacker 20/20 vision of the battle area should be reduced.

This feature should of course also reflect the RL level of preparations and SOP of the different armies.

As far as gamey tactics go I believe it has less to do with the units in the game and more to do with the players playing the game.

Actually I think it has to do with the built in abilities of the vehicles and how the players choose to use them.

[ 08-18-2001: Message edited by: tero ]

[Tero]

Originally posted by lcm1947:

It might make the game too easy and too fast and where's the fun in that.

Being too easy and being too unrealistic are the two opposing extremes from my POV.

I can live with most of the abstractions and approximations in the game. But in their drive for realism vs playability I think the limits set to the orders available for the player (especially in case of infantry) the game has become perhaps inadvertantly, heavily biased in favour of using "canned" tactics. Any deviation from the norm (ie. use of assets in a way that was not thought of when the game was being designed and playtested) produces anomalies in game engine performance.

Should there be a right or correct (also enforced) way to play the game ?