WolfLord Posted January 27, 2001 Share Posted January 27, 2001 Does anyone know if a catastrophic vehicle explosion causes infantry casualties? I did a search on this and my findings were inconclusive. Seems Matt was asked this question back in 06/2000 and he wasn't sure then. I was just curious if anyone has found out anything further. Reason I'm asking is that I just completed a QB (PLAYING ALLIES!! ) where a couple of my Stuarts met an explosive end. Afterwards, i noticed a few of my squads with mysterious casualties. I am reasonably certain that they were not taking fire, but they were close to the Stuarts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
109 Gustav Posted January 27, 2001 Share Posted January 27, 2001 Not sure on this one. I'm gonna test it out tonight. Units embarked on tanks that brew up will take heavy casualties, often 100%. ------------------ Well my skiff's a twenty dollar boat, And I hope to God she stays afloat. But if somehow my skiff goes down, I'll freeze to death before I drown. And pray my body will be found, Alaska salmon fishing, boys, Alaska salmon fishing. -Commercial fishing in Kodiak, Alaska Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forever Babra Posted January 27, 2001 Share Posted January 27, 2001 Well, I can say with certainty that passengers are going to be KIA when there's a catastrophic explosion. I lose more full squads that way... Don't know about nearby pongos though. ------------------ When it's my turn to march up to Glory, I'm gonna have one HELL of a story... The Face of Evil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
109 Gustav Posted January 27, 2001 Share Posted January 27, 2001 Okay, I just ran a simple test. I had 10 cromwells in open ground, with 10 88mm AT guns about 100 yards away. There were 4 platoons of American rifle 44s placed as close to the tanks as possible. Three of the croms brewed up, and all were knocked out. None of the squads lost a man, or were even shaken by the explosions. Looks like they're ok if a nearby vehicle brews up. ------------------ Well my skiff's a twenty dollar boat, And I hope to God she stays afloat. But if somehow my skiff goes down, I'll freeze to death before I drown. And pray my body will be found, Alaska salmon fishing, boys, Alaska salmon fishing. -Commercial fishing in Kodiak, Alaska Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Madmatt Posted January 27, 2001 Share Posted January 27, 2001 The brewups themselves are just a graphical effect and have no inherent "Blast Rating" as I understand it. Now what CAN cause nearby casualties are impacting HE rounds and even ricochets and fragments of a shattered shells hitting nearby units, although those last two are quite rare. Madmatt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMplayer Posted January 27, 2001 Share Posted January 27, 2001 Originally posted by Madmatt: The brewups themselves are just a graphical effect and have no inherent "Blast Rating" as I understand it. Now what CAN cause nearby casualties are impacting HE rounds and even ricochets and fragments of a shattered shells hitting nearby units, although those last two are quite rare. Madmatt Sometimes you just get a normal brew up, but sometimes you get an extra explosion graphic added on, like when houses explode. In the latter case, can the blast cause damage? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WolfLord Posted January 27, 2001 Author Share Posted January 27, 2001 Ok, thanks Matt. I also ran a test similar to Gustav's and came to the same conclusions. Undoubtedly, the troops in question took some fire that I missed. Infantry casualties would be a cool, realistic side effect to the violent brew-ups. Maybe those explosions could be equal to about a 155mm blast. Just a thought for CM2... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maximus Posted January 27, 2001 Share Posted January 27, 2001 Originally posted by CMplayer: Sometimes you just get a normal brew up, but sometimes you get an extra explosion graphic added on, like when houses explode. In the latter case, can the blast cause damage? That's what we're talking about--that extra explosion. You mean like this? And this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WolfLord Posted January 27, 2001 Author Share Posted January 27, 2001 Heheh, yeah that's it, Maximus. Some even have a concussion wave that expands outward. BTW, to see a Panther explode like that is rare indeed...I don't think I have seen it yet in a game; a brew up, yes...but not a catastrophic explosion. Nice battle footage there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMplayer Posted January 27, 2001 Share Posted January 27, 2001 Originally posted by Maximus: That's what we're talking about--that extra explosion. You mean like this? I don't have those mods, but if they are the 'house collapse' explosions, and not just run o' the mill brew ups then yes. Nice pics, btw. regards, --Rett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maximus Posted January 27, 2001 Share Posted January 27, 2001 Originally posted by WolfLord: Heheh, yeah that's it, Maximus. Some even have a concussion wave that expands outward. BTW, to see a Panther explode like that is rare indeed...I don't think I have seen it yet in a game; a brew up, yes...but not a catastrophic explosion. Nice battle footage there. Hehe, yeah, those are Jumbos up on the hill. That was an all-armor QB I did with like 8 Jumbos vs 4 Panthers and 4 KTs, just to test the survivability of the Jumbo's front armor. I played it with v1.1b24. It came down to several Jumbos against one KT, and you know I couldn't hardly get a flanking shot on the last KT because it kept rotating its hull to face my two pronged attack. IIRC, the KT was Elite, he could get that thing turned and destroying my tanks before I could get that flank shot in. But seeing a Panther brew up like that, hell I saw that in my very first game with the full version back in early July when a flamethrower unit hiding in a building ambushed my unsuspecting Panther. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maximus Posted January 27, 2001 Share Posted January 27, 2001 Originally posted by CMplayer: I don't have those mods, but if they are the 'house collapse' explosions, and not just run o' the mill brew ups then yes. Nice pics, btw. regards, --Rett Those aren't mods. They come with the patches. The were first released with the v1.01 patch that came out as the game shipped. Then in one of the Beta Patches recently, they were updated to a enhanced version made by Madmatt and Tiger. If you can't see them with every explosion, even little hand grenade explosions, you either don't have high-quality smoke enabled, Shift-I, or your video cared doesn't support transparencies which is required for high-quality smoke and transparent buildings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMplayer Posted January 27, 2001 Share Posted January 27, 2001 Originally posted by Maximus: Those aren't mods. They come with the patches. The were first released with the v1.01 patch that came out as the game shipped. Then in one of the Beta Patches recently, they were updated to a enhanced version made by Madmatt and Tiger. If you can't see them with every explosion, even little hand grenade explosions, you either don't have high-quality smoke enabled, Shift-I, or your video cared doesn't support transparencies which is required for high-quality smoke and transparent buildings. I usually have high quality smoke turned off, but in any case I am referring to something else, which is visible even with fast and compatible smoke. There is a definite difference between a brew up, and a 'catastrophic' brew up, as they are calling it here. The latter shows a shock wave go out. MadMatt didn't seem to be talking about this one when he answered, so that's why I asked. regards, --Rett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maximus Posted January 27, 2001 Share Posted January 27, 2001 Originally posted by CMplayer: I usually have high quality smoke turned off, but in any case I am referring to something else, which is visible even with fast and compatible smoke. There is a definite difference between a brew up, and a 'catastrophic' brew up, as they are calling it here. The latter shows a shock wave go out. MadMatt didn't seem to be talking about this one when he answered, so that's why I asked. regards, --Rett Yes those catastrophic explosions do emitt a shockwave, but it is very quick. If you are seeing it slowly, then that's a matter of your using a slow computer and/or video card. Being that you said that you don't use high-quality smoke much, then I assume your computer/video card can barely handle CM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfe Posted January 27, 2001 Share Posted January 27, 2001 Originally posted by WolfLord: Does anyone know if a catastrophic vehicle explosion causes infantry casualties? As others have said, they don't seem to (except for the tank crew, of course). Though if you fire hollow core rounds at a tank, the largish explosion of those rounds does affect nearby units, but that's directly from the shot fired, not the side explosion of the vehicle, AFAIK. And HE rounds can also do damage to both the tank and nearby inf. Embarked infantry doesn't seem to like getting a tank shot out from under it regardless of which type of shell is used. - Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMplayer Posted January 27, 2001 Share Posted January 27, 2001 Originally posted by Maximus: Yes those catastrophic explosions do emitt a shockwave, but it is very quick. If you are seeing it slowly, then that's a matter of your using a slow computer and/or video card. Being that you said that you don't use high-quality smoke much, then I assume your computer/video card can barely handle CM. Depends on the size of the battle. I like battalion sized battles, but it can get a little choppy at times, yes. I once played a very small night/fog scenario I threw together just for fun. I was amazed how smoothly it ran; it was really beautiful to watch actually. Still, it's good enough to play, and that's what matters. FYI I have an out of the box iMAC with a G3, 350 mhz, no idea about the card, except that transparant effects do work. (the next computer will definitely have an uberprocessor, tons of memory and a great graphics card, for CM's sake, if nothing else) regards, --Rett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullethead Posted January 27, 2001 Share Posted January 27, 2001 There was a big discussion on the effects of exploding vehicles on nearby troops a LONG time ago. Shortly thereafter, the "catastrophic explosion" was added to the game. These graphics appear to me to represent the usual result of a tank "blowing up", both visually and physically. IOW, no damage to nearby troops other than sometimes making them take cover or be cautious. I think the problem is, most people think that "exploding" tanks function like big bombs, so they expect lots of casualties from its fragments. But in real life, this usually isn't the case. Normally, after the tank "blows up", you're left with a recognizable tank carcass missing very few parts. What happens most of the time in real world "catastrophic explosions" is that the propellant charges for the tank's ammo ignite. This is more of a high-speed burning than a real explosion because that's what the propellants are designed to do when ignited. So it doesn't really seem to produce a blast wave capable of ripping solid steel apart, but it does create a very high pressure inside the vehicle. This pressure naturally vents itself out all available openings, carrying the burning propellant gases with it. But the hull of the tank stops solid pieces of internal fittings from getting out. What happens is, jets of intense flame spurt out every crack and opening of the tank. The heated air rises instantly, causing the jets to coallesce into a single big fireball mushrooming rapidly up above the tank. It's all over literally in a flash and you're left with the tank sitting there, mostly intact externally, with anything flammable still inside burning away normally. The pressure of the propellant fire, however, is often strong enough to lift the turret a few inches. When the pressure is gone, the turret drops back onto the hull, often slightly cock-eyed from its usual position. Sometimes hatch covers will blow off, but usually they seem to just pop open. Thus, there really isn't usually anything coming from the tank except a brief wave of heat. So that's what you get in a CM catastrophic explosion--the big fireball blooming up quickly over the tank and nothing in the way of fragments to hurt bystanders. And if you look closely, you often will see the turret sitting slightly cock-eyed. This all seems quite realistic to me. True, sometimes tanks suffer more damage. Sometimes the turret pops completely off and sometimes the hull itself is ripped apart. But these fates are pretty rare compared to the propellant fireball thing. So because CM doesn't have a model for a totally shredded tank anyway, it seems this sort of truly catastrophic explosion is just not implemented. Which is fine with me, considering its relative rarity. That said, there's still the question of the effects of catastrophic explosions on the vehicle's crew and passengers. I'm quite surprised so many of them survive because the heat of a propellant fire will instantly flash fry all personnel in the vehicle when it happens. Yet in the game, you see the big fireball, then the crew bails a few seconds later, sometimes with no casualties. I can only conclude that this is simply a misleading effect caused by the order in which CM does things. I believe that the occurrance of catastrophic explosions and the crew's fate are determined instantly upon the vehicle being knocked out. However, CM always has the surviving crewmen bail a few seconds after the vehicle is knocked out. Still, I think the game has already decided by that time that some of them really got out BEFORE the explosion. ------------------ -Bullethead In wine there is wisdom, in beer there is strength, in water there is bacteria. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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