Col Deadmarsh Posted November 7, 2001 Share Posted November 7, 2001 I remember seeing this in Close Combat 2. They had the Mark III, and the Mark IV. Is this the same thing as the Panzer IV? What does Mark mean/what is it used to denote? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pvt. Ryan Posted November 7, 2001 Share Posted November 7, 2001 I believe Mark is used to designate a "version." Mark III would be a Panzer III, and a Mark IV would be a Panzer IV. Each completely different tank would have its own Mark, but variations of the same Mark would have a letter suffix as Mark IV G. I think it is a term more commonly used by the British, as this definintion isn't in my "American" dictionary. The British also redesignated the US Sherman model names with this system, such as the Sherman Mark II and the Sherman Mark III, etc. Correct me if I am right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpl Carrot Posted November 7, 2001 Share Posted November 7, 2001 If you are right then you wouldn't need correcting, would you. Seems correct to me however. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted November 7, 2001 Share Posted November 7, 2001 Mark is a British term. The Germans never used it - Brit historians are famous for applying their own terminology to anything foreign. The German designation was Panzerkampfwagen IV, sometimes shortened to Panzer IV and abbreviated PzKpfw IV. The PzKpfw I, II, III etc. were completely different from each other, and not what one would call a "mark" in any event. Submodels in German, which probably could be called "marks' in the British sense, were referred to as "ausf" whatever, ie PzKpfw IV ausf A PzKpfw IV ausf B PzKpfw IV ausf F1 PzPkfw IV ausf F2 etc. The Americans simply tacked numbers on - M4 tank, M4A1, M4A2, M4A3E8, etc. There was a funny post about what the M4A3E8 designation really means, I think the FAQ has a link - unless someone else will be so kind... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike8g Posted November 7, 2001 Share Posted November 7, 2001 © of this text: BULLETHEAD, posted 07/10/2000 on this forum You've discovered a little-known WW2 tank-grog thing here that BTS. in its search for the ultimate in realism, has modeled in CM. I've been waiting to see if anybody else noticed this. Most people assume that the M in US vehicle designations means "Model". Thus, the Medium Tank M4 Sherman would be the "Model #4" Medium tank. This is incorrect. The M actually stands for "Mortality" and the number represents the life expectancy of the vehicle in minutes. Thus, Shermans were rated officially at 4 minutes of survival in a combat situation, which is reflected actually in CM by having them die on turn 4. After the Sherman had been in production for some time and combat experience had been gained, it was noticed in many cases, particularly for the earlier productions runs of Shermans, that the official Mortality rating was a bit optimistic. Thus, the designation was changed to reflect the new data. This involved appending the letter A and another number to the M4 designation, the A standing for "Actually" and the number being the revised Mortality rating. For example, the M4A2 had a combat-proven life expectancy of "Actually 2" minutes. Later on, the designation got even more accurate by appending a number in parentheses and the letter W. Despite the widely held conviction that the parenthetical number was the caliber of the gun, what these symbols really meant was that the tank had a 75% or 76% chance of going WHOOSH in a big fireball when penetrated. However, some models of the Sherman were so inflammable that calculations showed they had a 105% chance of brewing up, so they just left it at that and didn't bother with the W, because they were going to WHOOSH regardless. Towards the end of the war, some Shermans gained an E and another number in their designations. The E meant "Extra Cost" and the number was a designator for the manufacturer, to ensure that company got extra money for making the tank. CM accurately reflects this by making these types of Shermans cost more to buy. Thus, the M4A3E8(76)W designation meant a tank with an official Mortality of 4 minutes, Actually 3 minutes, cost Extra, and had a 76% chance of going WHOOSH. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted November 7, 2001 Share Posted November 7, 2001 God bless you - I love you, man. I guess the alternate explanation of Mark has to do with a hairlip dog, but we won't go there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Col Deadmarsh Posted November 7, 2001 Author Share Posted November 7, 2001 <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Michael Dorosh: Mark is a British term. The Germans never used it - Brit historians are famous for applying their own terminology to anything foreign. The German designation was Panzerkampfwagen IV, sometimes shortened to Panzer IV and abbreviated PzKpfw IV. The PzKpfw I, II, III etc. were completely different from each other, and not what one would call a "mark" in any event. Submodels in German, which probably could be called "marks' in the British sense, were referred to as "ausf" whatever, ie PzKpfw IV ausf A PzKpfw IV ausf B PzKpfw IV ausf F1 PzPkfw IV ausf F2 etc. <hr></blockquote> I wonder why Atomic, makers of the Close Combat series would label a German tank with a British term? Of course, this is the company which thought the Daimler had a 6 lb. gun and yet no mg so this is actually on par with their warped way of thinking. What idiot did the historical research for this game? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eeyore Posted November 7, 2001 Share Posted November 7, 2001 mike8g Cripes, never knew this! I've now redesignated all me tanks and AFVs as M0.5A0NB (Mortality 30 seconds, actually dies instantly, no bleedin chance of hit) Yeknod Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts