Where is the US "M3 Grease Gun"?

[Echo]

The M3 was made late in the war to replace the heavy and expensive to produce Thompson SMG. They looked similar to the British Sten, all stamped metal, and I believe over 500 thousand were made. I checked all the late 45 infantry types and didn't see it.

I wonder if it was left out for simplicity, or because they were not standard issue. (The Thompson also was not standard issue.).

[Abbott]

IIRC the grease gun was left out of CM due to its effects being similar to the Thompson's. I am sure a serach would turn up the necessary information, complete with BTS's reply to your question.

An interesting side note is as late as 1978 (maybe later) that they were still being issued two per tank (M60A1's) to compliment the crewman's .45cal. Sidearm.

[This message has been edited by Abbott (edited 03-27-2001).]

[PantherGunner]

When I was a platoon leader in the 3/73rd Armor in the 82nd ABN Div, we were issued two grease guns per track as well. M1 Tank crews are going/have gone to the M4 carbine.

[Echo]

Yup, there it is. Here are some other small arms missing. (Dunno where the hell I was when this was posted).

Big Time Software

Moderator posted 09-13-2000 12:23 PM

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Just some quick points:

FG42s - rare. Only 3000 or so of both types were ever made and by 1944 it would be pretty rare to see one in combat.

Sturmgewhr - listed as earlier designation "MP44"

MP28/34 - phased out long before this. The Waffen SS used them earlier in the war because they had to procure their own weapons and that is what they could afford. When they were assimilated into the Wehrmacht they then had access to standard weapons, like the MP40.

MG34 - long debate about this a couple of times. For frontline infantry units this weapon was not (in our opinion) around in any significant quantities. We will certainly model it in CM2 though.

Magnetic mines - Germans were very short on magnets by 1944 so they were largely not present on the battlefield.

Rifle Grenades (German) - we are still having a spirited debate about this internally. The research that has been done (by someone who wants them in ) is mixed. We are therefore erring on not including them for now.

M3 Grease Gun - pretty close to the Thompson from CM's point of view. The benefit of this weapon was that it was cheap and easy to manufature, as well as more reliable under battlefield conditions. So we decided not to complicate things

G43 German semi-auto rifle - We found this one a bit tough to leave out, but we also couldn't really figure out how common it was to run into one of these on the battlefield. So we left it out because currently if we put it in there would probably be too many in the game.

Krummlauf - "exotic" to say the least

Various forms of AT weapons - both sides had many types of hand held AT weapons, but of course the Germans had more than their fair share We simply couldn't simulate them all, so we abstracted them to some degree.

Captured weapons - the Germans put into service nearly every weapon they captured. And they captured a LOT of weapons Therefore, we had to draw the line somewhere. That line was drawn at "standard issue" equipment.

Steve

[Scipio]

Originally posted by Echo:

Yup, there it is. Here are some other small arms missing. (Dunno where the hell I was when this was posted).

Big Time Software

G43 German semi-auto rifle - We found this one a bit tough to leave out, but we also couldn't really figure out how common it was to run into one of these on the battlefield. So we left it out because currently if we put it in there would probably be too many in the game.

Moderator posted 09-13-2000 12:23 PM

My great weapon encyclopadia says that around 400000 wer delivered between February 44 and March 45, mostly used on the East Front. A must have in CM2.

FG42s - rare. Only 3000 or so of both types were ever made and by 1944 it would be pretty rare to see one in combat.

5000-7000 were produced, mostly AFTER Summer 1944.

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[This message has been edited by Scipio (edited 03-27-2001).]

[SenorBeef]

Originally posted by Abbott:

IIRC the grease gun was left out of CM due to its effects being similar to the Thompson's. I am sure a serach would turn up the necessary information, complete with BTS's reply to your question.

An interesting side note is as late as 1978 (maybe later) that they were still being issued two per tank (M60A1's) to compliment the crewman's .45cal. Sidearm.

[This message has been edited by Abbott (edited 03-27-2001).]

My dad was issued one as of 1983, as an m113 driver in the engineer corps... it might've been a year or two earlier though.

[Abbott]

Originally posted by SenorBeef:

My dad was issued one as of 1983, as an m113 driver in the engineer corps... it might've been a year or two earlier though.

Hello SB. I have not spoken with you since our last game. I still remember the strong attack you launched on a map that 100% favored the defender. Very well done.

[Guest Mikey D]

Rumor has it the 'Grease Gun' was a shoddily made piece of crap and generally not liked. M1 carbines were preferred, generally. The shortened M16 with telescoping stock (I don't have the proper ID handy) was supposed to replace it... but the M16 had its own peculiar problems on its introduction during Vietnam. If you put a round that hadn't been specially heat-treated into the chamber it WOULD jam. The gun was actually redesigned so the soldier could more easily bash on the bolt with the heel of the hand to try & unjam it. good thinking.

[Abbott]

Originally posted by Mikey D:

Rumor has it the 'Grease Gun' was a shoddily made piece of crap and generally not liked. M1 carbines were preferred, generally. The shortened M16 with telescoping stock (I don't have the proper ID handy) was supposed to replace it... but the M16 had its own peculiar problems on its introduction during Vietnam. If you put a round that hadn't been specially heat-treated into the chamber it WOULD jam. The gun was actually redesigned so the soldier could more easily bash on the bolt with the heel of the hand to try & unjam it. good thinking.

The Grease Gun by Ithica was and is a very low quality firearm as any stamped weapon is. Stamping the parts is very inferior to machined parts. A stamped AK-47 sells for 1/3 or less of the price as the same machined weapon. If you want an easier accessible weapon to check this with, drop by your local Gun Dealer and look at a Tec-9. They are low quality stamped weapons as well.

[CATguy]

I just recently purchased a "M3" grease gun. It has been converted to semi-auto for NFA reasons but is the real thing. I find the quality of manufacture very good and inline with most other "stamped" weapons. Very simply built, rugged, and simple maintenance which are the trademarks of this SMG. Also it is a blast to shoot and even my petite wife can handle it. I think there would be no firepower differences between the Thompson and the M3, therefore no real reason to include the M3 in CM. Plus the Thompson is infamous when compared to the M3.

[LimShady]

Originally posted by CATguy:

I think there would be no firepower differences between the Thompson and the M3, therefore no real reason to include the M3 in CM. Plus the Thompson is infamous when compared to the M3.

I would think that the Thompson was famous and the M3 was "infamous"....

[CATguy]

oops yes, wrongly said on the infamous part, silly me and my grease gun!

[bfamily33]

Fyi, you can install a M3 Grease Gun mod into the .45 Thompson slot. That mod is available at Combat Mission HQ.

[therontmoore]

IIRC the M3 "Grease Gun" was a weapon mainly for AFV crews for personal defense. IMHO there would be no need to model it because any AFV crew bailing out of their damaged vehicle would not take the time to grab the M3! Once outside the vehicle their only weapon would be the .45 pistol.

IMHO I really don't think the M3 was issued to any infantrymen (special units, maybe).

But that's all just my .02-cents worth

[Mannheim Tanker]

Originally posted by PantherGunner:

When I was a platoon leader in the 3/73rd Armor in the 82nd ABN Div, we were issued two grease guns per track as well. M1 Tank crews are going/have gone to the M4 carbine.

We were issued one M-16 (can't remember which variation...) per tank. Never saw an M4. This was back in '91-94. Our individual 45's were replaced by M9's (Berettas) shortly after I arrived at the unit.

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Andreas himself will attest that my massive ego and foolhardy belief in my own greatness would never allow for me to be anyone's worshipper - Hamsters

[Guest Mikey D]

The Thompson SMG was 'infamous'. It weighted twice as much as it needed to, and fired at twice the necessary rounds-per-minute (sounds like the MG42 that way!). Controlling the Thompson was something of an artform. In the Thompson/ vs Grease Gun shootoff I guess it'd all depended on if you had to carry it or not.

[guachi]

I've posted this before about the Gewehr 43, some time last year.

The Gew 43 had about the same production as the MP43/44 did, about 400,000 units. This was about 1/20th the output of the K98, though the Gew went mostly to front-line units and it was only produced for two years or so.

A quote from a book entilted Germany's Infantry Weapons 1939-45 mentions this about their use, "[t]heir employment was largely confined to front-line infantry units, especially the motorized Panzergrenadiers, but the type never came remotely close to approaching the widespread use of the bolt-action Kar 98k and its ilk."

I would guess that it would be reasonable to have one per Panzergrenadier squad. The book also mentions that most were shipped to the Eastern Front, so maybe it will be included in CM2.

Jason