Maximus Posted April 16, 2001 Author Share Posted April 16, 2001 I don't know about some of you people. It seems that this society is getting SOOO lazy that it won't take the time to set up an application to make things even easier. Just like Gordon said, the batch files are set up to swap out a hellava lot of mods with just one double-click, while the Mod Manager, if I understand the application correctly, is that you you have to click this one, click that one, etc. etc. and then click "Install" to activate them. To be honest with ya, TwoSheds, it seems to me that the Mod Manager takes a lot more time to set up than the batch files. I maybe wrong, but that is why I never d/l'ed it. Because I read through the readme a while back and it seems that, "Hell, this is even more complicated than the batch files." Not to knock your work on the application, TwoSheds, but I just found that the BFS was easier to do. Besides, I like looking at all my pretty icons. [ 04-16-2001: Message edited by: Maximus ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clubfoot Posted April 16, 2001 Share Posted April 16, 2001 hmmmmm......... Well, anyway. As Gordon has correctly stated, both systems have their merits. Someone recently commented in another thread (don't remember who) that the comparison is akin to scrutinizing "forks vs. spoons". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maastrictian Posted April 17, 2001 Share Posted April 17, 2001 I downloaded about three mods six months ago... don't even remember which they are. Other than that I'm running all origional BTS graphics! 01d skool dud3! F33r my l33t sk1lz! No need for batch files or mod-manager for me (Sorry, clearly I've been spending too much time around my 12 year old sister ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manx_CM Posted April 17, 2001 Share Posted April 17, 2001 One thing that annoys me about batch file mods - as i understand it, one of the criteria of being MOD MANAGER compatible, is that the file has to include preview pics of the mod. Puleeze, make sure that the pics are "shrunk" down to a reasonable size before posting. I have received MM files containing pics 1MB in size and have had to doctor them down to something more reasonable - howasabout 15K!. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maximus Posted April 17, 2001 Author Share Posted April 17, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Manx_CM: One thing that annoys me about batch file mods - as i understand it, one of the criteria of being MOD MANAGER compatible, is that the file has to include preview pics of the mod.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Whoops, got your mod styles screwed up there? Batch file mods don't require any preview shots. Did you mean Mod Manager Mods? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manx_CM Posted April 17, 2001 Share Posted April 17, 2001 err, yes Max, i did mean MM files, but then again, when it comes to mods, i'm as confused as the next man (or woman!). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clubfoot Posted April 17, 2001 Share Posted April 17, 2001 Well no, actually, ModManager mods do not need images to be MM compatible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Micheal Wittman Posted April 17, 2001 Share Posted April 17, 2001 Umm copy and paste, I like the taste of the paste too! In the past, I was a text OS kinda guy, nowadaze the easier the better I say! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TwoSheds Posted April 17, 2001 Share Posted April 17, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> To be honest with ya, TwoSheds, it seems to me that the Mod Manager takes a lot more time to set up than the batch files. I maybe wrong, but that is why I never d/l'ed it. Because I read through the readme a while back and it seems that, "Hell, this is even more complicated than the batch files <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> No maybe about it. :mad: < that's for anyone posting comments about Mod Manager that have never downloaded and used it. In fact here's another one :mad: For every 1 negative comment posted on the board about about Mod Manager it takes 10 positive comments to recover, for those still undecided. It's a shame the negative votes count (and they count big time) when they've never even used :mad: the Mod Manager [ 04-16-2001: Message edited by: TwoSheds ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marco Bergman Posted April 17, 2001 Share Posted April 17, 2001 TwoSheds, I think far more people use the ModManager then you might realise. You only ever hear about the problems and complaints. If it's any consolation, all I ever hear about the batch files are "Help!!" messages. It would be a pity for you to abandon this obviously much liked tool on the basis of some negative comments. It serves a function many players require. If it wasn't used, I wouldn't bother to get Old Dog to ensure that my mods were as compliant as possible. I don't see the conflict here, myself. The two systems do diffrent things. For setting the overall selection and order of mods from scratch, MM can't be beat. For swapping in and out one nationality on the spur of the moment, batch files seem to me (and I force nobody else to agree here) to be ahead. Two very different tasks. And yes, I do have a copy installed. For the DFDR conversion, short of a second installation MM is definately the way to go. To use a batch file would be insane! You said at some point that batch files are the future. They are the past. I wrote the first batch files knowing that they were a quick and dirty solution, but having no choice because my programming skills are mired back in DOS. The troubles behind the scenes we've had with those damn things! You don't know the half of it. (right, Gordon?) If there is a better, simpler way than batch files I'd love to hear about it. Or at least a little Windows front end program to launch them: that'd be really nice... But please don't abandon MM just because of the loud vocal minority. When reading criticism, consider the source... I'm sure others who read a thread this far do the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon Posted April 17, 2001 Share Posted April 17, 2001 TwoSheds, I'm in agreement (as stated previously) with Marco. My personal opinion is that just a couple of additional features would allow the batch files to be retired completely. Now, these probably need to be refined, but let's get the discussion rolling. 1. The ability to organize mods into "groups". 2. The ability to install an individual mod group. Ok, conceptually this is similar to what bfamily33 says he does in the other CM Mod Manager thread. Basically allow the user to create a hierarchy (either within CMMM or by Windows Explorer). These might consist of (among others) "Terrain", "Buildings", "Vehicles", "Canadian Vehicles", "British Vehicles", "Polish Vehicles", "British Camo Vehicles", "US Army", "US Army Camo Vehicles". I think y'all see where I'm going with this. :cool: It has to be somewhat free-form to allow users and mod authors sufficient flexibility. Ok, so here's the pay-off. Each time Marco releases a new vehicle mod (for instance) I'll place it in the appropriate "group", select from all the "Extra" or optional textures he's provided and then install the mod as part of the "group". To change to a Canadian ORBAT, I simply re-install the Canadian "group" of mods. Now, as long as this post is, I don't consider it a fully fleshed out idea, but I'd be more than happy to be part of a "round table" to discuss this or other ways to improve CMMM to the point where batch files are no longer needed (I helped create them and they're still a pain in the ass to work on) Gordon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TwoSheds Posted April 17, 2001 Share Posted April 17, 2001 Gordon, Great post, you've got my attention. Mod Manager was designed (it's Focus) on the Mod. It appears that Mod's are a lot more granular (detailed) than I thought they would be. I envisioned the likes of MDMP where it had about a dozen vehicles in it, but Mods these days focus around one tank with it's chrome (camo, emblems, etc). The batch files are needed to select the appropriate "chrome" as I saw it. I'm trying to figure this out and need some more detials: Why can't each of the Vehicle groups you described above be in it's own Mod with options and extras? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon Posted April 17, 2001 Share Posted April 17, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TwoSheds: Gordon, Great post, you've got my attention. Mod Manager was designed (it's Focus) on the Mod. It appears that Mod's are a lot more granular (detailed) than I thought they would be. I envisioned the likes of MDMP where it had about a dozen vehicles in it, but Mods these days focus around one tank with it's chrome (camo, emblems, etc). The batch files are needed to select the appropriate "chrome" as I saw it. I'm trying to figure this out and need some more detials: Why can't each of the Vehicle groups you described above be in it's own Mod with options and extras?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> TwoSheds, Well they certainly could, and I'd think you'd want to preserve the flexibility to allow that within CMMM, but the biggest strength of the BFS is that you can click on one icon and swap all (or at least all the vehicles Marco's completed to date) from Polish to Canadian markings. Ultimately, that capability will expand to ALL the Canadian vehicles in the game. Since its unreasonable to expect everyone to re-download the "Canadian Armor" mod each time Marco adds another vehicle, the best way (I could think of) is to have the concept of groups of mods to allow this classification "after the fact". So, for instance, Marco's existing M4 Mega pack could be broken up into separate US and Free French packs that would be the founding members of the "Marco US Vehicles" and "Marco FF Vehicles" groups. The "optional" textures that Marco loves to provide fit nicely into the existing CMMM "Extras" category. Where it starts to get trickier is in how to handle things like the "Low Visibility" US textures, and the "Cavalry" US textures? Are they "Options" (in the CMMM) sense of the term within the M4 mod (within the "Marco US Vehicles" group), or are they each a separate "group" (e.g. "Marco US Cavalry Vehicles" and "Marco US Low Visibility Vehicles")? The first alternative would seem to make more sense (and save space), but unless an option could be applied across all the mods within a group, it is cumbersome to select. The second alternative requires more space (as the "Marco US Cavalry Vehicles" mod shares many BMPs with the "Marco US Vehicles" mod), but swapping them is easier. So maybe the answer (to implement alternative 1) would be to associate meta data with the mod group that would allow the same configuration to be applied to all mods within the group when the user decides to install the group. If that's all as clear as mud. Gordon [ 04-17-2001: Message edited by: Gordon ] [ 04-17-2001: Message edited by: Gordon ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TwoSheds Posted April 17, 2001 Share Posted April 17, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> So maybe the answer (to implement alternative 1) would be to associate meta data with the mod group that would allow the same configuration to be applied to all mods within the group when the user decides to install the group. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> My line of thinking is going the same direction. The best way to do this is to have meta data at the "Group Level" and if a Mod in the group has the option, great, otherwise use the default skin. There are 2 problems to overcome: 1> dynamic application so that when a new Mod comes into a Group it is allowed to add to the meta data of the group. 2> Mods must be self contained, A user should just have to copy it to the Mods folder to get it to work. That means even if he doesn't know what group it belongs to it will still show up in the right place. I'm booked solid now with 2 other playests (oh yeah, my real job too) but I can give this some thought now, and some time later. Gordon, can you read data models? Creating a data model will ensure I understand the problem completely. I may model this out and have you look at it, if you want. [ 04-17-2001: Message edited by: TwoSheds ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon Posted April 17, 2001 Share Posted April 17, 2001 TwoSheds, Re: Problem 1: Yes, tricky, but not insurmountable. One possibility would be to have version information associated with the group's meta data and allow each mod to provide a versioned copy of the group's meta data (only the latest version "wins"). Re: Problem 2: Excellent idea. If it makes things easier, you might even consider having the user place all new mods into a "new" or "install" sub-folder so that each time CMMM starts up it can easily recognize that something's been added. Yes, I can read data models if you want to send me anything to look at. Please send it to "g.molek@att.net". Gordon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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