How can a sexton kill a Panther???

[Aposotol]

I am frustated, in a recent game i am playing be PBEM, i have my panther killed by a Sexton from 450 meters, in a frontal shoot. "Front lower hull penetration". How can be this posible, if a sexton rarely can penetrate 80mm at 0º angle at 500m and the panther haver 60mm at 55º?????.

By the way it never said the frustating sentece "at weak point".

As soon as i saw this, i started testing with the AI, i managed to destroy 5 sexton with only one panther, And the Ai did the same to me.

Apostol

[Guest KwazyDog]

Hi Aposotol,

Remember that the Panthers armour quality is only 85% of its full potential, due to flaws in its construction by that stage in the war. This would reduce the Panther around to effectively 51mm at 55 degrees.

At 500m again 60 degrees of armour, that AP rounds used by the Sexton can penetrate 41mm of armour, so Im guessing at 450m against 55 degrees of slope, the AP round could *just* penetrate the lower hull.

Basically, its possible, but I think you got very unlucky! Hope that helps a little

Dan

[Maximus]

I'd just rack that one up as "**** happens".

[jasoncawley@ameritech.net]

Its the upper hull that has that beautiful slope. The lower hull isn't quite so strong. And 25-lb HEAT is nothing to sneeze at...

[Sergeant Huang]

Guys :

Remember one thing, sh*ts happened

during the war !!

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Sgt. Huang

I LOVE my country, but my

government suc*s.

[Phoenix]

Originally posted by Sergeant Huang:

Guys :

Remember one thing, sh*ts happened

during the war !!

What?

But wait!!

I thought German tanks were INVINCIBLE!!!!

BTS, somefink is WRONG!!

[Guest Mike the bike]

I don't think the 25pdr used HEAT did it? IIRC it had a 20lb AP round.

[Jeff Duquette]

I think Mike is right. 25-pdr….88mmL28 AP Shot only…9.07kg.

@ 30 degree angle of attack, range = 100m, penetration = 69mm

@ 30 degree angle of attack, range = 450m, penetration = 62mm

BHN for I.T.80 armour test plate = 300–331

[Phoenix]

I set up a firing range. 6 Sextons against one poor Panther A.

DIdn't get any frontal kills, but occasionally it the Panther would turn slightly and I'd get a side turret, and one side lower hull.

What really baffled me though was these Elite Sexton crew members firing HE at the Panther, even though they had plenty of AP. They would fire some AP, then switch to HE. Didn't keep close track of it but all of them at some point fired HE.

Whazzzup wiff dat?

[This message has been edited by Phoenix (edited 02-08-2001).]

[Cybeq]

Another thing to remember is that the battlefield is rarely a level surface. If your armor slopes back 55 degrees but your tank is on a forward slanting hill which slopes at 55 degrees then you are actually presenting a 0 degree surface to your enemy. I realize a 55 degree slope is pretty steep but the point is still valid. Your armor slope is relative to a level surface.

[Michael Dorosh]

Also - the 25 pounder was a howitzer, not a gun. In North Africa it was used with great effect as an anti-tank gun, because of the circular gun platform, and the dismal performance of the 2 lbr required it to be used as such.

By 1944, it was being used in its intended role (indirect fire support). Not clear on how often the Sexton was used as an "assault gun" - they equipped self propelled artillery regiments, and weren't used, AFAIK, near the front lines.

My dad was a gunner on 25 pounders in the late 1950s - the ammunition came in two parts, the case and shell were seperate. This would seem on the face of it to decrease the rate at which the gun could be fired, though I believe a standard crew was 5 or 6 men, and at least one German prisoner (this may be anecdotal) was heard to ask his captors if he could see the "belt-fed 25 pounder gun" that had rained so much metal down on his unit.

I wasn't aware a HEAT round was ever produced for this weapon. The 6 and 17 pounders were the standard AT weapons by 1943, though an experiment in Italy resulted in 6 pounders being withdrawn from at least a few infantry battalions for a short period before the infantry units demanded them back.

25 pounder support became a very real "crutch" for Commonwealth infantry - their system of calling down fire was an art form by Normandy - and it seems unlikely that they would be "squandered" as anti-tank guns in anything but extreme situations - though I stand open to correction.

[jasoncawley@ameritech.net]

"This would seem on the face of it to decrease the rate at which the gun could be fired, though I believe a standard crew was 5 or 6 men"

Actually, that is pretty standard for arty. In fact, larger guns use seperate-loading ammunition, the shell itself and then a powder bag behind it (155mm and up). The U.S. 105mm was semi-seperate, meaning the powder comes in seperate cans, and goes into the back of the round, with the projectile part screwed back on before firing. Sounds like the 25 lber was too.

This is not done by the gunner, but by the same ammo handling team that fuses the shells. The shells, powder, and fuses all come seperate. The amount of powder to use varies with the range of the fire mission. The fuse varies with the target and ammo type fired. So what happens is, the ammo handling team preps all the shells for the mission - unscrewing things, "cutting" the powder to the right amount (how many bags of which type), setting the fuses, screwing everything together. Then they hump the shells up to the gun. The loader on the gun operates the piece, while the gunner just aims it.

On an SP version, there is supposed to be an ammo vehicle - often just a truck - for the ammo handler operation and to carry extra shells and the whole mix of supplies. But the gun itself will run with a number of shells already "made up" / assembled, in its on-board ammo racks. These will be standard types and direct fire types, like maximum powder charge quick-fuse HE or delay fuse HE (those two you can switch with just a screwdriver in a matter of seconds on fuses these days; don't know about then but I doubt it was all that different).

When Sexton's or Priests are being used for support, direct-fire style, they'd have loads of the rounds made up. It doesn't matter what powder charge you use in direct fire, because you don't have to figure out how far it is going to "carry" when it is going to intersect the target on a flat trajectory real soon. (Think about bowling vs. golf - in bowling, you don't care very much about getting the range "just right"). Just so your ranges are set for the charge you have (maximum powder, usually),so your gunsight will work, "flat".

For what it is worth...

[Michael Dorosh]

Yes, for the 25 pounder there was Charge I, Charge II and Charge III, ie, differing amounts of powder to be used. One of the things my dad still remembers.

In the case of the 25 pounder, they were loaded seperately, not (AFAIK) screwed together. One of the gun numbers had a ramrod which he used to, I suppose, seat the round and casing before the breach was closed.

My dad always regretted that he never got to see the splash of the shells he fired.

[Guest JonS]

The ram-rod on the 25pdr was used to ensure the projectile was seated properly before the cartridge containing the charge bags was inserted into the breach behind the proj.

Very style-y looking things they are too. Made of wood, they are about as long as your forearm, with a blunt brass and to smack against the base of the proj.

Be cool

Jon

*******

If you eat well, and **** strongly, you will not fear death.

[Olle Petersson]

Originally posted by Aposotol:

"Front lower hull penetration". How can be this posible, if a sexton rarely can penetrate 80mm at 0º angle at 500m and the panther haver 60mm at 55º?A

Okey, the lower hull isn't 55 degrees, and maybe the gunners did like they did to get through the "heavy" PzKw IV in Africa; bounced the AP on the ground so that it penetrated upwards. Either through the weak floor or at least off-setting the lower hull slope.

Cheers

Olle

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Webmaster of Combat Mission för svensktalande, a CM site in Swedish. Norwegians, Finns, Danes and Icelanders are also welcome as members, others can still enjoy pictures and downloads.

Strategy is the art of avoiding a fair fight...

Detta har kånntrollerats av Majkråsofft späll-tjäcker.

[Bastables]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

Yes, for the 25 pounder there was Charge I, Charge II and Charge III, ie, differing amounts of powder to be used. One of the things my dad still remembers.

In the case of the 25 pounder, they were loaded seperately, not (AFAIK) screwed together. One of the gun numbers had a ramrod which he used to, I suppose, seat the round and casing before the breach was closed.

My dad always regretted that he never got to see the splash of the shells he fired.

Correct, firing a separate variable charge and shot/shell as opposed to a one-piece cartridge is a property of the Howitzer relative to a Gun. For example the 6pdr fires a shot with a fixed charge in a cartridge form, making it a ‘Gun’. I think no one but the Germans used the Gun as an artillery piece during the war: sK.18 10cm (actually fired a 10,5cm cartridge but was classified as such so no one would mix up and send incompatible 10,5cm Howitzer ammo to a Gun batteries and vice-versa).

Still having fun Jon? Have they talked about extending your stay in paradise?

[mensch]

yes if you get lucky.. you got to make sure the Panther does not jump you or hit you with its claws, then it would drag you down before you get to use your sexton.. remember: Parley, dodge, thrust, jump, spin..and... oh wait are we talking about CM here?

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www.derkessel.com Home of „Die Sturmgruppe“; Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission.

[PantherGunner]

"Another thing to remember is that the battlefield is rarely a level surface. If your armor slopes back 55 degrees but your tank is on a forward slanting hill which slopes at 55 degrees then you are actually presenting a 0 degree surface to your enemy. I realize a 55 degree slope is pretty steep but the point is still valid. Your armor slope is relative to a level surface. "

Does CM model slope this way?

[Olle Petersson]

Originally posted by PantherGunner:

Does CM model slope this way?

Yes, to some extent...

I don't know if the game engine adds some random slope angle for each calculation, but it would surely be realistic.

Cheers

Olle

------------------

Webmaster of Combat Mission för svensktalande, a CM site in Swedish. Norwegians, Finns, Danes and Icelanders are also welcome as members, others can still enjoy pictures and downloads.

Strategy is the art of avoiding a fair fight...

Detta har kånntrollerats av Majkråsofft späll-tjäcker.

[Ben Galanti]

CM does model the effect of the terrain slope on the armor, so if a tank is on a hill, and it's lower hull is sloped back, you are actually canceling the effect of the slope. Or, for that matter, if the shooter is at a lower elevation then the target, the slope won't be as effective as on level ground.

The other thing is that those numebrs in the stats are just approximate. Some rounds will penetrate a couple of mm more then stated, some a couple of mm less, it just varies from round to round. CM models this too.

Couple all that with the Panthers 85% armor and you get something that, while unlikely, is possible.

Ben

[Forever Babra]

In addition to the three regular charges for the 25 pdr, other charges were developed and introduced to give greater flexibility. One of these was the super-charge cartridge, for greater range and flatter trajectory.