M16

[Phoenix]

Originally posted by Shep:

But if BTS releases a smattering of vehicles next month, it serves well to refresh the game for all of us.

Don't get me wrong, I too would think it "cool" to have more vehicles, the M16 included.

But you have to ask yourself......who would put this pack together? Charles is THE programmer. As in, the only one last I checked. And since BTS has decided to get moving on CM2 and has the schedule "locked down" they're not going to suddenly go off on a tangent to go research all these oddball vehicles and spend months completing it at the cost of pushing CM2 back. Just not gonna happen. They have a business plan for a reason.

I am by no means a programmer, but it's my bet that an addon pack of vehicles is not something that they could just throw together in a month. Vehicles are hard coded into the engine. You can't just download an expansion pack and suddenly have them show up. Then you run into issues of PBEM problems. Some people would have these vehicles, others would not.

I think you're really out on a limb here and aren't seeing the forest for the trees. Doing some kind of addon pack is going to delay CM2. Simple as that. And they're just not going to do this.

You really need to let it go man!

Well, I guess you could be like Gunny Bunny and continue to ask for something that BTS has said won't be done. But that's probably a bad idea.

[Shep]

Okay, so you have a long journey through a hot, dry land until CM2 arrives. You can briefly delay that journey by sitting down and enjoying an ice cold beer. Who wouldn't do that?

For the sake of an ice cold one, let's have those vehicles!

Mark

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Scouts Out!

[Spook]

Originally posted by -Havermeyer-:

Failure to include this weapons is another clear indication of BTS's inherent Axis bias.

In due respect, Havermeyer, LOL. If anything, the BTS crew has recently been run through the wringers on more numerous occasions as having an "Allied bias." A couple of the more contentious topics linked to this were "long range ordnance accuracy" and "the effect of optics on accuracy". "Optics" is recommended as a search term to find the thread in note.

I will state my own view that I would like to see the M15/M16 HT's added someday. But my only desire for this is that these vehicles did play a role in specific historical battles like Baraque de Fraiture in the Ardennes. And I would like to like to include the AA HT's if I was to create a predesigned scenario of this battle, or others like it.

But similar to what Slapdragon expressed earlier, I can wait until the next CM game engine. The effort to include these now, even in a paid-for "expansion pack", works against the CM2 schedule.

It might then be asked by those still questioning the "bias" of BTS: why were the German AA vehicles included in their own turn? Well, BTS would be better to answer this, but I will venture this plausible theory.

The German unit lists include their specialized AA vehicles because the Germans are more often to run into attack from close support aircraft.

Of course, if a player thinks that it's unfair for the Germans to have their "AA toys" (given that only 105 Wirbelwinds and 43 Ostwinds were built), then the Allied player should request a house rule that such vehicle type purchases be disallowed to the German player. I personally don't think that the noted German AA vehicles should NORMALLY be allowed except in historical scenarios.

[Shep]

Somehow I don't believe it would take more than a month to do a few significant vehicles. If it took that long to do the original batch, we'd still be waiting for the release of the game.

Yeah if it took six weeks to do 3 vehicles, I'm on your bandwagon. But I don't think it will. I could be wrong, but I doubt it.

Phoenix - you're obviously an East Front guy. I don't blame you for wanting to move it along. I too am eager for CM2. But I think the AA vehicles are a significant enough omission to take a short break to do them.

It may be that the BTS guys are about sick and tired of CMBO, and just want to move. I wouldn't blame them for that either.

Mark

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Scouts Out!

[Barticus]

Oi Slim, methinks I opened a can o'worms oi coitainly do!

Sorry guys, didn't know it was such a hot topic when I asked that first (seemingly) harmless question.

Bart

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"I have slipped the

surly bonds of earth...."

[Guest Space Thing]

Originally posted by Barticus:

Sorry guys, didn't know it was such a hot topic when I asked that first (seemingly) harmless question.

Bart

Hey Bart,

It still is an excellent question. Thanks for bringing it up! This has to be talked about.

[Slapdragon]

Originally posted by Shep:

Somehow I don't believe it would take more than a month to do a few significant vehicles. If it took that long to do the original batch, we'd still be waiting for the release of the game.

Yeah if it took six weeks to do 3 vehicles, I'm on your bandwagon. But I don't think it will. I could be wrong, but I doubt it.

Phoenix - you're obviously an East Front guy. I don't blame you for wanting to move it along. I too am eager for CM2. But I think the AA vehicles are a significant enough omission to take a short break to do them.

It may be that the BTS guys are about sick and tired of CMBO, and just want to move. I wouldn't blame them for that either.

Mark

It might take only a month, but it will raise hell (right now). Anytime the Allies are tweeked to their perceived advantage (real or not) there is a furor. We will have 1800 posts saying "If the Allies have the M16, why can't the Germans get the Sturm Tiger, NO FAIR BTS" and will want their own pet vehicle included, even if it is a new bmp set and render and even if it adds another months. Eventually, we will not have CM2 until 2005 as this or that little car is added to CM.

So, CM2, which will come out the end of this year first. CM3 next year. Eventually there may be a CMBO Advanced pack that updates CMBO and adds what you want, and since the M16 will slip in the back door with it there will not be the huge furor of including it.

[Phoenix]

Originally posted by Shep:

For the sake of an ice cold one, let's have those vehicles!

How many times does it have to be explained?

Anything that will delay CM2 is not going to be undertaken at this point.

And -

Creating new vehicles creates a new problem for PBEM games that will open another can of worms.

It's nice that you are so sure it will only take 1 month. But somehow I think BTS knows better.

Oh, and no. Im not an East Front guy at all. Hell I don't know squat about the East front. I am enjoying the hell out of CM right now. I play just about every night.

[This message has been edited by Phoenix (edited 01-30-2001).]

[Slapdragon]

Originally posted by Phoenix:

How many times does it have to be explained?

Anything that will delay CM2 is not going to be undertaken at this point.

And -

Creating new vehicles creates a new problem for PBEM games that will open another can of worms.

It's nice that you are so sure it will only take 1 month. But somehow I think BTS knows better.

Oh, and no. Im not an East Front guy at all. Hell I don't know squat about the East front. I am enjoying the hell out of CM right now. I play just about every night.

[This message has been edited by Phoenix (edited 01-30-2001).]

Shoot Phoenix, don't sell yourself short now, you don't know squat about the West Front either.

Modified to add further clues to the harmless intentions of this humor laden post.

[This message has been edited by Slapdragon (edited 01-30-2001).]

[Phoenix]

Originally posted by Slapdragon:

Shoot Phoenix, don't sell yourself short now, you don't know squat about the West Front either.

So you suddenly feel the need to take shots and me now too eh? What's the matter? The other threads not confrontational enough for you?

Im very impressed, this adds a lot to the discussion.

Cheers.

[Slapdragon]

Originally posted by Phoenix:

So you suddenly feel the need to take shots and me now too eh? What's the matter? The other threads not confrontational enough for you?

Im very impressed, this adds a lot to the discussion.

Cheers.

Yep, you make a stab at humor to defuse, and it flies right over the top. It was a joke Phoenix. We need more jokes! Reread it and figure out what else it could be.

[This message has been edited by Slapdragon (edited 01-30-2001).]

[Phoenix]

Yep, you make a stab at humor to defuse, and it flies right over the top. It was a joke Phoenix. We need more jokes! Reread it and figure out what else it could be.

I read it three times to see if there was something I was missing. I couldn't see anything other than a blatent cheap shot.

You may want to add a or a if you want to convey subtle humor next time. Obviously I can't pick up on it.

[Shep]

Regarding the time it might take to build and code a few vehicles...

Within the body of this topic there is a reference to the simplicity of adding the Sherman Alligator. The models were already built.

Think about it. These are AA halftracks, right? Aren't the models for the halftracks already built? Just add a quad fifty mount, and voila! Not that hard, right? And the data for the .50 cal is already there, and I'm fairly confident for the quad fifty mount as well. AI coding? How about a chunk from the dreaded Wirblewind itself. A close approximation, eh? In other words, they wouldn't be built from scratch.

And I'm not listening to a self-appointed spokesman, either. Sorry Phoenix. I'll allow you to gloat all you want if and when BTS sticks my nose in it, but you don't rate in my book as their spokesman.

I'll gladly and humbly submit to their reply when it comes. As far as I'm concerned, and I'm sure several others with me, I want the issue reopened and reexamined.

Mark

Mark

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Scouts Out!

[gunnergoz]

Geepers, as much as I'd love to see the darn M16 & M15, I'm getting the impression that we'll see the 11th Commandment added to the stone tablets before BTS would add more to CMBO. Sniff, sniff...sob.

OK, life will go on somehow. I'll be allright, BTS, really.

Now, where's the scotch?

[Phoenix]

Originally posted by Shep:

And I'm not listening to a self-appointed spokesman, either. Sorry Phoenix. I'll allow you to gloat all you want if and when BTS sticks my nose in it, but you don't rate in my book as their spokesman.

Oh ferrr crying out loud. I hardly pretend to speak for BTS.

I happen to read what BTS posts. I relayed that to you. I even copied and pasted quotes

from them about this topic into this thread so you could see what their plan is. You continue to dismiss even BTS's plans. Fine.

You obviously know better.

You've heard the last from me on this thread. I eagerly await the expansion pack that is sure to come out in 4 week.

LOL!!

[Guest Big Time Software]

Mark:

I'll gladly and humbly submit to their reply when it comes.

Time to humbly submit We have answered this question several times, and it has been reopened and reexamined as well several times before. The answers given thus far by other posters are totally correct. There will be NO expansion pack. Not free, not for fee. None. Reasons are restated below:

Somehow I don't believe it would take more than a month to do a few significant vehicles.

We are moving on. We can't keep spending time on something that was released nearly 8 months ago and we haven't worked on anything since, which was not the plan. Delaying CM2 by even a week is out of the question. And to do a pack it will take far more than a week. It also comes with other problems that are far worse.

If it took that long to do the original batch, we'd still be waiting for the release of the game.

It took, on average, about 3 days to make a vehicle. That involved the work of 3 people (Dan, me, and Charles). This is the main reason why the M16 and other vehicles weren't included in the first place. We very simply ran out of time. The M16 was probably the next vehicle to do on the list, but there were plenty of others that were cut out. German players have been griping about not having the Brumbar about as much as the M16 for example.

It may be that the BTS guys are about sick and tired of CMBO, and just want to move. I wouldn't blame them for that either.

Not quite correct We would LOVE to keep doing things for CM1, but we MUST move on or we will NEVER get to do anything else BUT CM1. We have already fallen behind on CM2 by several months, and we simply can't keep letting CM1 get in the way of our forward motion. At some point we need to say "enough already, time to get on with it". CM 1.12 (not released yet) will be that point.

Also folks... we would have to release this patch as a freebie. But for reasons stated below, this is out of the question. New vehicles means new file formats, which means everybody has to upgrade (i.e. pay) to the vehicle expansion pack or they won't be able to play against each other. This is a totally BS (or should I say MS ) way to treat our customers, so we can't charge for a vehicle pack.

I don't think anybody here will question how much extra value we have added to CM1 since its first release. I don't mean bug fixes and TCP/IP, which were part of the original deal, but the dozens of tweaks and new features we stuck in simply because people asked us to do them. So we think it is rather unfair to expect us to spend another month working on something that we aren't going to get compensated for AS WELL as delaying CM2 which we are going to get compensated for.

CM1 sales are still going strong, but they will run out of steam sooner or later. That is the natural way things work in software. We had better have CM2 ready for release around this time or we will be put into a bad state. Remember... although we love what we are doing here, we already worked for 3 years without pay. We aren't going to plan on doing that again. Trust me, it wasn't fun

Er... hope that answers the question quite firmly. No expansion pack. On to the Eastern Front!

Steve

[This message has been edited by Big Time Software (edited 01-31-2001).]

[Shep]

BTS:

Too bad.

I wish you were willing to take a week off to put the finishing touch on your masterpiece, but you obviously have your sights set on other things.

Thanks for taking the time to answer and reconsider, and I genuinely hope that you will do it someday.

I've been with you since Flight Commander 2, and this is the first reason I've found to be disappointed. That's not a bad record, I suppose.

Mark

[Shep]

"although we love what we are doing here, we already worked for 3 years without pay."

You worked 3 years before you received a paycheck, but you did get paid. It's just kind of like back pay. But that's the experience of many entrepeneurs, and you're hardly unique in that regard.

"I don't mean bug fixes and TCP/IP, which were part of the original deal, but the dozens of tweaks and new features we stuck in simply because people asked us to do them. So we think it is rather unfair to expect us to spend another month working on something that we aren't going to get compensated for AS WELL as delaying CM2 which we are going to get compensated for."

And these suggestions added value to your product, which increased sales. I would suggest that you DID get paid for that, in satisfied customers who became zealous promoters of your product. There were, however, lots of people who devoted tons of time toward the improvement your product, and who never got paid nor ever will.

They're your customers.

Mark

[Ari Maenpaa]

Every other person refers to the M-16 as "meatgrinder". But which one really was the ultimate meatgrinder, M-16 or the Sd Kfz 7/1 Flak vehicle? 4x .50 mg against 4x 20mm.

Ari

[Philistine]

Originally posted by Shep:

BTS:

Too bad.

I wish you were willing to take a week off to put the finishing touch on your masterpiece, but you obviously have your sights set on other things.

{snip}

Mark

I think the problem is also that the way you feel about the M16 is the same way other people feel about other vehicles. I've seen equally persuasive posts from others asking for a number of different vehicles-- Brumbar, Sturmtiger, Pz III, Allied "Funnies"--where do you draw the line.

What Steve said was each vehicle averaged about 9 man-days of work (3 people 3 days). Adding the five most requested vehicles would take 45 man-days of work (not including week-ends).

While I'd love to see these and even more vehicles in, given the large # of vehicles that are already there, it seems quite understandable (even if somewhat disappointing) to concentrate on CM2.

Just my $.02

--Philistine

[Jeff Heidman]

The problem with not having the M-16 is that the Allies lack a decent mobile AA weapon.

I understand the reasoning behind giving the Germans one since they were more likely to come under air attack.

The problem is that in your typical QB, that effect does not exist. The German player can purchase a variety of different and effective AA assetts that double as infantry support. The Allied player is hosed if the German player gets some air support.

But at this point it is a moot issue. The focus is rightly on CM2, so arguing about it is only useful as a way of wasting time rather than actually working...

Jeff Heidman

[Vanir]

Shep, you're not humbly submitting

Philisine:

I think the problem is also that the way you feel about the M16 is the same way other people feel about other vehicles. I've seen equally persuasive posts from others asking for a number of different vehicles-- Brumbar, Sturmtiger, Pz III, Allied "Funnies"--where do you draw the line.

What Steve said was each vehicle averaged about 9 man-days of work (3 people 3 days). Adding the five most requested vehicles would take 45 man-days of work (not including week-ends).

While I'd love to see these and even more vehicles in, given the large # of vehicles that are already there, it seems quite understandable (even if somewhat disappointing) to concentrate on CM2.

That sums up my own feelings perfectly. If they only did the M16 there would be accusations of favoring the Allies. I'd love to see a vehicle pack, but I understand BTS's reasoning.

Ari:

Every other person refers to the M-16 as "meatgrinder". But which one really was the ultimate meatgrinder, M-16 or the Sd Kfz 7/1 Flak vehicle? 4x .50 mg against 4x 20mm.

I wonder how often the Sd Kfz 7/1 was actually used in this manner. Remember, the M16 is an armored vehicle while the 7/1 is just a truck. Small arms fire could take it out pretty easily. On the few occasions I've had a 7/1 I've kept it well behind the lines, looking for Allied planes and not much more.

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You've never heard music until you've heard the bleating of a gut-shot cesspooler. -Mark IV

[This message has been edited by Vanir (edited 01-31-2001).]

[Guest Big Time Software]

Shep wrote:

You worked 3 years before you received a paycheck, but you did get paid. It's just kind of like back pay. But that's the experience of many entrepeneurs, and you're hardly unique in that regard.

I never said we had a unique experience. What I said is that part of our business should remain behind us. You don't see GM exectutives going without pay even though they were one a start up, do you? We have paid our dues more than one in our carreers as game developers (I personally have gone 5 years out of 10 without pay) and therefore do not feel overly anxious to keep on doing it.

And these suggestions added value to your product, which increased sales. I would suggest that you DID get paid for that, in satisfied customers who became zealous promoters of your product.

True to some extent. However, I would contend that we could have done 1/2 as much new stuff with each patch and still had just as many sales. Heck, I would suggest that if CM were buggy we would still have as many sales. Point is that we feel we have gone well beyond the call of duty, and I think very few could make a case to challenge that position.

There were, however, lots of people who devoted tons of time toward the improvement your product, and who never got paid nor ever will.

And your point is what exactly? That we made a fantastic game that people are more than happy to add to out of pure joy of seeing their own touch in the game? I agree. If your position is that someone modding our game means that we owe people even more work, I strongly disagree. Even the casual CM player probably got more than their $45 worth in enjoyment compared to other games they have bought in the last 5 years. We have done more than our fair share of work already.

I wish to put forward a question here. What is the big deal about not having a SINGLE vehicle in the game, in your opinion? I am not talking about how cool or usefull it would be in a particular scenario, but in terms of its affect on the rest of the game.

We have at least hundred vehicles and even more other units to play with, in a huge range of ways, with undending replay value and multiplayer capabilities. The UI is damned good, the AI is the best out there, the research is solid, the realism is tip-top, the gameplay is fun and exciting even, the graphics are unlike any other wargame ever, the sound is really grabbing, the game itself is rock solid stable, etc.

So taking all this into account... isn't pining for ONE SINGLE SPECIAL CASE VEHICLE strike you as being just a little bit "ungreatful"? I mean, West Front has an M16 in it, right? Why aren't you playing that instead of Combat Mission?

I'm not trying to be mean here, I am just trying to get you to see things from a larger perspective. This is such a minor issue. And if it isn't for you, then we wash our hands of it because it should be.

Steve