Winterhawk Posted February 12, 2001 Share Posted February 12, 2001 Hello all. And to all, a question. Sort of. And forgive me if it's been covered previously as I'm rather new here. And forgive me too for the rant. I truly do feel that CM is the best game I've ever played. Period. But there does seem to be a rather serious omission. The omission I'm referring to, is that there seems to be a complete absence of reporting. By that I mean that your units never seem to report - audibly or otherwise - on the presence or sighting of enemy units. Admittedly, every once in awhile you'll hear someone shout Panzer! But who said that? And where are they? And how many are there? CM does a phenomenal job of placing you, the player, in command of a incredible battle. But someone must have forgot to put batteries in my radio, because I never hear from the units I'm in command of. Unless I personaly view the battlefield during and after each turn from every applicable perspective, I have no idea what's going on. Case in point. My brother and I, after a number of smaller IP engagements to familiarize ourselves with the nuances of the game, have recently begun a very large Quick Battle - 5000 points each on a 1.5 km X 5.0 km map. A part of my strategy was to position a few units in key areas around the map to serve as 'spotters'. Their role is simply to stay out of sight and watch a particular sector for any enemy movement. Trouble is, when they do see something, they never 'report' it. The only way I know any enemy units are creeping around out there is, at the end of each turn, to enlarge, replay, scroll, zoom, pan and otherwise review the turn and terrain ad nauseum. The acceptions of course are when the shooting starts. It's pretty easy to follow the tracer fire to a target. And the smaller maps too tend to negate this problem, as 1 or 2 camera views can just about pick up anything that moves. But on these big maps it's a very real problem. Oh to hear even the occassional "*crackle*...enemy infantry contact - sector 7 - acknowledge...*crackle*". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aka_tom_w Posted February 12, 2001 Share Posted February 12, 2001 Originally posted by Winterhawk: Oh to hear even the occassional "*crackle*...enemy infantry contact - sector 7 - acknowledge...*crackle*". Hi and Welcome to the Addiction of CMBO! OK this one is easy.... Well at least I think its easy. Simply use the big over head map at view 8 to see what they spot. Turn your bases ON. (the coloured bases shift now from the over head view when you start you should see no opfor coloured unit bases. BUT the instant any of your "spotters" spots one, an opfor coloured unit base will instantly pop up. Does that make sense? Try against the AI with FULL fog of war on. Sure you should get down on the ground in view 3 and view 4 to check out the terrain, but to start to watch the result of the movie for the first time try the high view 8 with bases on and see what pops up? (its a totally visiual way of spotting, there is not real good way of expecting auditory reports, or written reports for that matter, the method of reporting is simple, when one of your guys sees one of their guys, their coloured base pops up and you can zoom in and see what your guy thinks he sees or hears, sound contacts will pop up the same way) Good luck! -tom w [This message has been edited by aka_tom_w (edited 02-12-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Clark Posted February 12, 2001 Share Posted February 12, 2001 Good idea Tom! I'm gonna give this a try myself... ------------------ "Fear is for the enemy... Fear and Bullets." "They didn't want to come... but I told em, by jeepers, it was an order." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winterhawk Posted February 12, 2001 Author Share Posted February 12, 2001 Thanks for the tip Tom. I have in fact already found the large, overhead views c/w bases on to be the quickest way to get the big picture. But it's just got a 'fakealoo' feeling about it. Everything about CM exudes realism and authenticity. Why the shortfall when it comes to battlefield communications? I'm no military historian, but I do know that simple field radios were widely used and heavily relied upon. No WW2 commander had a factor 8 satelite view of the battlefield. He had a unit on the other side of that ridge. And that unit had a radio. And that unit reported back to the commander what he saw. The commander then made decisions based on this, the most fundamental source of intelligence. Not to make comparisons, because CM certainly exists in a class all by itself, but the Close Combat series made simple, effective use of both audible and textual messages to convey important data back to you, the commander. CM by far has a superior variety of voices, sounds, and so forth, and they do fit the particular situation the unit is in. But the intent seems more environmental and generic in nature, more to supplement the atmosphere rather than convey critical data. If possible, I would like to suggest to the designers of the forthcoming games in the CM series, that they take a serious look at incorporating some form of situational communication. Anything that will empower that unit over there to tell me that they just heard a vehicle behind that tree line, and thus save me from having to go look for it myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Codfather Posted February 13, 2001 Share Posted February 13, 2001 It might become a little annoying once the enemy starts to seriously advance upon your position. Your spotter will be busy shouting out "enemy tank, enemy SMG squad, oh sh*t enemy flamethrower! AARGHHHH!" I do agree with you that it tends to be a hassle to keep an eye on large maps... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jasper Posted February 13, 2001 Share Posted February 13, 2001 If you search for 'relative spotting' you'll be able to read more that you care to know about this issue. As it stands now either (a) the units don't have anything to report to each other or ( they report what they see to each other with 100% accuracy in zero time. Depends on your point of view which is which. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Germanboy Posted February 13, 2001 Share Posted February 13, 2001 Originally posted by Winterhawk: Everything about CM exudes realism and authenticity. Why the shortfall when it comes to battlefield communications? I'm no military historian, but I do know that simple field radios were widely used and heavily relied upon. Hi Winterhawk - you could do a search on the topic of radios (is it scalled the scr-576, the platoon-level radio?) and find out lots more about it. Unfortunately I don't know where the threads went. Bottomline is - radios were really only used below company level by the US. They were not very reliable in the broken and hilly terrain where most of the fighting took place. Even with the US, squads would not have radios, AFAIK, but they would only reach down to platoon level. I am sure some real grog can fill you in much better. Enjoy the game. ------------------ Andreas Der Kessel Home of „Die Sturmgruppe“; Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deanco Posted February 13, 2001 Share Posted February 13, 2001 Ya know what... I can dig where Winterhawk is coming from. I was very surprised to discover the number of audio cues in the game, covering a lot of different situations. The problem is, unless you're right next to the unit saying it, you don't hear it. If there was a way to turn up the gain and be able to "hear farther" before the signal faded out it would be cool. True though, unit acknowledgements in CM are definately underplayed. Tom's idea is a good one, though. ------------------ DeanCo-- CM interface mods: http://mapage.cybercable.fr/deanco/ so many games...so little time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Madmatt Posted February 13, 2001 Share Posted February 13, 2001 Actually you do get audio messages of spotted armor. You have to listen close but if a new tank appears you may hear something like "Watchout Enemy Tank" or "Panzer" etc... There are very few just *random* sounds played in the game. 99% of them are there to indicate something, either a moral state change, a order being carried out, a targeting situation or even running low on ammo. A commander uses not only what is seen in the game, but what is heard. Madmatt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abteilung Posted February 13, 2001 Share Posted February 13, 2001 Ohhhh jeez I can hear the cries of the grenadiers ehcoing in my head still.....Ja! Ja! Feindliche Panzern!! Feindliche Panzern!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olle Petersson Posted February 13, 2001 Share Posted February 13, 2001 Oh how joyful it would be to get realistic reports, instead of these pin-point accurate visual representations we get now. Instead of "Infantry squad?" at a specific location you'd get "Infantry platoon(/company)" at some location as accurate as the sound spotting. The only correctly placed units, friendly as well as enemies, would be those within LOS of your top HQ. Then you'd give orders based on this more or less faulty information. Cheers Olle ------------------ Webmaster of Combat Mission för svensktalande, a CM site in Swedish. Norwegians, Finns, Danes and Icelanders are also welcome as members, others can still enjoy pictures and downloads. Strategy is the art of avoiding a fair fight... Detta har kånntrollerats av Majkråsofft späll-tjäcker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winterhawk Posted February 13, 2001 Author Share Posted February 13, 2001 I performed a small test last night. I divided a very small, flat map in half (West/East) with a wide swath of tall pines. In the SW corner, I positioned a US Bazooka team. In the NE, a neat little row of 6 Tigers. Throughout the test the Tigers never moved - they were simply 'spotting targets'. I advanced the 'Zook' team into the tree line at the extreme south end of the map. Then, not having spotted anything yet, I turned them north, being sure to remain in the cover of the pines. Sure enough, as each Tiger came into view, the team called out: 'Enemy Tank', or 'Watch Out - Enemy Tank!'. Six tanks. Six warning messages. I must say that I hadn't as yet noticed the regularity and the accuracy of the unit reporting demonstrated with this simple test. Most commendable. And I apologize for my oversight of this feature. I must say though that deanco made a very valid point. One that I hadn't really considered the tactical significance of. And that is that the volume for all the sound effects, voice and weapons alike (excluding ambient), rises and falls with the proximity of the camera. Replaying this small test of mine with the camera down low, as far away as the small map would allow, and facing the other direction (basically trying to simulate the distances on large maps), I never heard a thing. So again, assuming I was playing on a large map, if I didn't take the time to review the action sequence carefully, I would never know that 6 Tigers lay in wait behind that tree line. Is this intended Madmatt? Is there any way to more effectively convey this rather critical bit of information? Admittedly, as per Germanboy's comments, perhaps giving everyone an operational radio isn't realistic. But would that be any less realistic than a central commander who has the ability to 'fly' close enough to any unit on the field so as to hear their conversation? It's obvious that an effort was made to make the intelligence available simply by the presence of the audible messages. Perhaps if it was just a little more accessible... [This message has been edited by Winterhawk (edited 02-13-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aka_tom_w Posted February 13, 2001 Share Posted February 13, 2001 Originally posted by Winterhawk: Is this intended Madmatt? Is there any way to more effectively convey this rather critical bit of information? Admittedly, as per Germanboy's comments, perhaps giving everyone an operational radio isn't realistic. But would that be any less realistic than a central commander who has the ability to 'fly' close enough to any unit on the field so as to hear their conversation? It's obvious that an effort was made to make the intelligence available simply by the presence of the audible messages. Perhaps if it was just a little more accessible... [This message has been edited by Winterhawk (edited 02-13-2001).] Hi Winterhawk What you are speaking of is the dichotomy between and ultra realistic WW II combat simulation (no over head view, ultra realistic relative spotting) and a playable video game (roving camera view in 3D anywhere, absolute spotting) with GREAT "Game play" (CMBO) that sells games. Some of us here have requested the OPTION of a way of playing for realism that will ONLY allow the view of the battle field to be seen from only view level 1 ONLY from any friendly unit. NOW that could be programed to a way of playing that both partires could aggree to and the camera view of the battle field would then ONLY be from view 1 locked to ANY friendly unit. I suspect most folks playing this game would not like that. Some folks here have the iron self discipline to force them selves to do that for "fun". If you want to play the AI and you trust your selve to maintian "view 1 discipline" just select view 1 and hop between friendly units with and click the tab key and the camera will lock to each unit, this way you will only see what your men see. I suggest you will find it very difficult to actually "enjoy" playing the game. I would like the OPTION to play against an opponent by only viewing the battlefield from view 1 locked to any friendly unit. If I knew that was all I could see and that was the ONLY view my opponent would see then that would be one heck of realism WWII combat simulation for me!! Maybe we can lobby for that option in CM2? Anyone want to join the lobby? -tom w [This message has been edited by aka_tom_w (edited 02-13-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winterhawk Posted February 13, 2001 Author Share Posted February 13, 2001 Hmmm. An interesting 'view' to be sure tom. And I hope I haven't misrepresented my thoughts on this subject in any way. I don't mind at all having the ability to roam above and around the battlefield at will, regardless of it's implications on realism. This feature single-handedly adds volumes to the fun factor. But I want to review an action sequence from a given location because, quite simply, I want to. Not because I have to in order to maintain any form of situational awareness. Something I believe that would also add gobs of fun, while at the same time alleviate some of the repetitive, busy, 'gotta see the action from every unit every turn' syndrome, would be the addition of a little radio chatter. Nothing more. Just imagine. You're on a map several 'clicks' by several 'clicks' big. You peel off a couple of small, advanced scouting patrols while your main element moves SW to take up a defensive stance on a nearby ridge. With the exception of assigning orders, you all but ignore your patrols, focusing your attention on the manoeuvre and positioning of your main effort. Suddenly the radio crackles. It's one of your patrols. "Baker Charlie 9'er this is Whiskey 1. Enemy contact. Armour. Sector 4. Acknowledge." A 'sector' can be no more complicated than the 100 X 100 meter blocks used to create a map. They can be numbered, left to right, North to South. A very simplified way of narrowing down your search when you respond to the radio call by swinging your camera over for a look. "This is Baker Charlie 9'er. Acknowledged." ... *sigh*. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonidas Posted February 13, 2001 Share Posted February 13, 2001 Originally posted by Olle Petersson: Oh how joyful it would be to get realistic reports, instead of these pin-point accurate visual representations we get now. Instead of "Infantry squad?" at a specific location you'd get "Infantry platoon(/company)" at some location as accurate as the sound spotting. The only correctly placed units, friendly as well as enemies, would be those within LOS of your top HQ. Then you'd give orders based on this more or less faulty information. I disagree that this would be realistic. It's true that a real company commander would work on the basis of inaccurate information. But a real company commander also has intelligent people under him. Every tank commander, platoon leader, squad leader, and team leader in a real platoon has a brain of his own, some military training, and a keen interest in surviving the battle. The current state of AI technology does not provide anything that can imitate the decisions made by all the leaders in a real company. The individuals are much too smart to be modeled by AI, though they operate on incomplete information. So CM with ultra-harsh FOW is merely a realistic simulation of what it would be like to be commander of a company of idiots - the Lobotomized Company. Some examples of commands the Lobotomized Company can't understand: To an AT gun: Don't fire until a tank crosses your ambush point. If you give away your positions by firing at infantry, you're courtmartialed. To a vehicle: Wait until your passengers have embarked/disembarked before driving down the road. To infantry: I don't care if that machine gun 200m away is bothering you. We have to hold this positions, we're low on bullets, and an enemy infantry charge is expected soon. Don't fire back. To a tank: Enemy armor is sighted in the area. Load AP round and ignore non-threatening soft targets. To a tank: No enemy armor is believed to be in the area. Load HE round and engage soft targets at will. To a tank: Move up that hill until you find a hull down position from which you can view this area. If you want to fantasize about a realistic game that allows you to play company commander, then you'll need a couple dozen people to help you. Put a real person in charge of each tank, squad, and team and you will be approaching realism. Perhaps a distant future version of CM will allow us to do that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olle Petersson Posted February 14, 2001 Share Posted February 14, 2001 Originally posted by Leonidas: I disagree that this would be realistic. ... a real company commander also has intelligent people under him. ... The current state of AI technology does not provide anything that can imitate the decisions made by all the leaders in a real company. ...Perhaps you missed the wink? ( ) You point out the obvious, and the reason why I don't like to play battles with a large number of units; the AI doesn't allow me to give orders at the appropriate level. For CM a reinforced company is about as far as I like to go. Cheers Olle ------------------ Webmaster of Combat Mission för svensktalande, a CM site in Swedish. Norwegians, Finns, Danes and Icelanders are also welcome as members, others can still enjoy pictures and downloads. Strategy is the art of avoiding a fair fight... Detta har kånntrollerats av Majkråsofft späll-tjäcker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winterhawk Posted February 14, 2001 Author Share Posted February 14, 2001 I've certainly appreciated everyone's input. But my question still remains Madmatt (and others of the BTS guild). Would incorporating a feature like the 'radio chatter' I've described be doable? Is it something that you feel has the potential to improve gameplay and increase the overall value of the experience? I'm also very interested in anyone else's opinion too. Especially those who've had substantially more time with CM than I. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonidas Posted February 15, 2001 Share Posted February 15, 2001 Perhaps you missed the wink? ( ) You got me. I wasn't looking at the smiley face. But then, there really are people who think they would like to play that kind of game. I went round and round with them arguing about whether giving more information to the units to take some pressure off the AI would ruin CM with micromanagement. Now I don't know where they all went. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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