CMplayer Posted January 16, 2001 Share Posted January 16, 2001 My Stug gets hit by a bazooka. I can hear it, but I don't see where it came from (despite having infantry forward) Well, the 'detailed' armor hit says 'side penetration'. WHICH SIDE!!!!!????????? I Don't see a hole on the Stug. Can I find this out any way? By replaying the film and seeing which way the Stug jiggles maybe? I mean, I'd really like to get an indicator on where that bazooka might be located, and a hole in the side ought to be pretty noticable, both to the surviving crew members and the infantry around there. Sorry if this has been nitpicked about before, I really do promise to start using search before posting, as I notice people often mention doing. regards, --Rett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spook Posted January 16, 2001 Share Posted January 16, 2001 You won't see a "hole", because to show one would require an added graphic texture file for EACH vehicle model's surface of ALL vehicles. Or, to have a "hole overlay" would require added programming to place this over the texture of the vehicle surface that was penetrated. Furthermore, as you have discovered, all penetrations do not necessarily mean a knocked-out vehicle. A sure sign to see if a tank-class vehicle is knocked out (barring those that are burning) is to see if the gun barrel has dropped down. Or click on the vehicle to see if it is "abandoned." On most occasions anyway, if you are trying to find out what knocked out an enemy vehicle, watching replays several times from different camera angles will reveal both the killing projectile and where it came from. [This message has been edited by Spook (edited 01-16-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aka_tom_w Posted January 16, 2001 Share Posted January 16, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CMplayer: My Stug gets hit by a bazooka. I can hear it, but I don't see where it came from (despite having infantry forward) Well, the 'detailed' armor hit says 'side penetration'. WHICH SIDE!!!!!????????? I Don't see a hole on the Stug. Can I find this out any way? By replaying the film and seeing which way the Stug jiggles maybe? I mean, I'd really like to get an indicator on where that bazooka might be located, and a hole in the side ought to be pretty noticable, both to the surviving crew members and the infantry around there. Sorry if this has been nitpicked about before, I really do promise to start using search before posting, as I notice people often mention doing. regards, --Rett<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> It could be Just good FOW Yes in Real Life™ a noticable hole would be present in the side of the Stug. At this point the fact that detailed armour hits do not say which side got hit is in my opinion just another element of FOW. I think one of the best features of this game is the "Holy Crap Where the Hell did that come from Factor" when you get hit and KO'd and HAVE NO idea where that came from. That's one of the BEST parts of this game. The "Holy Crap Where the Hell did that come from Factor" was coined some time ago by some one here whose name I can't remember. but I will credit them (whoever they are) with the orignal phrase and quote. -tom w Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yarb Posted January 16, 2001 Share Posted January 16, 2001 One of the things I try to remind myself of is the context of the game. We know that we could look at tank and figure out where the hole is and from that deduce where the killing shot came from. However the odds of being able to do that (while under fire) and get useful information back to the commander so that he could act on it in the next few turns (minutes) is rather unlikely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aka_tom_w Posted January 16, 2001 Share Posted January 16, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Yarb: One of the things I try to remind myself of is the context of the game. We know that we could look at tank and figure out where the hole is and from that deduce where the killing shot came from. However the odds of being able to do that (while under fire) and get useful information back to the commander so that he could act on it in the next few turns (minutes) is rather unlikely.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I agree with Yarb on this one. Good Point! this "which side has the hole in it" issue is not really a big deal the grand scheme of things in my opinion. Its just More FOW. thanks -tom w Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maximus Posted January 16, 2001 Share Posted January 16, 2001 Yeah, the vagueness of the hits at times is just another form of FOW. Now when you can't see the projectile is another form of FOW in which in that case, you don't know where the killing shot came from. AFVs will at times know who's shotting at them and that is represented by a yellow line while having that vehicle selected. If there is not yellow line and your vehicle gets hit, that is just another example of FOW. ------------------ "Live by the sword, live a good LOOONG life!"-Minsc, BGII "Boo points, I punch."--Minsc, BGII Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Offwhite Posted January 16, 2001 Share Posted January 16, 2001 If your infantry are unengaged and didn't spot the bazooka when it fired, then it's probably not very close to them... Knowing where it's not is a step toward knowing where it is. The AI likes to open up at long range with hand-held AT weapons, so I'd look for likely positions out to 200m. If you're playing a human, perhaps he was hiding and all your boys walked/drove past him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMplayer Posted January 16, 2001 Author Share Posted January 16, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by aka_tom_w: It could be Just good FOW Yes in Real Life™ a noticable hole would be present in the side of the Stug. At this point the fact that detailed armour hits do not say which side got hit is in my opinion just another element of FOW. -tom w<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Well then why do the armor hits bother to say 'front' penetration, 'rear' penetration, 'top' penetration ? All of these give information about where the projectile might have come from. Why should the sides be singled out for extra-vague treatment? It's inconsistent. That kind of inconsistency needs to be ironed out in a game, not just explained away as extra FOW, IMHO. Besides, one of the things that makes FOW interesting is the process of trying to gather information to overcome it. Gathering information from the dispersion of shellholes, or the sides on which an AFV is hit is realistic and adds a new dimension to the game don't you think? As for getting the information back to the commander, so that it can be useful, I disagree that that need be so difficult. I remember reading about the XXX corps breakout at the beginning of Market Garden. They had all kinds of intelligence guys right up behind the lead platoon of tanks. It was _very important_ to localize the AT guns and they were ready to use every means to figure it out, including interrogating freshly caught German prisoners right on the spot. (They ended up putting a German infantryman up on one of the tanks and had him direct the fire, as you guys all have read about, I'm sure). That's why I think prisoners taken early enough in a CM game should be able to reveal concealed firing positions, btw. It would increase the number of types of 'sub objectives' you can give your troops, and add a new, and realistic, possibility for info gathering. Fun huh? But that's another post. Info gathering by knowing whether the penetration was on the left side or the right side really deserves to be in this fine game. Fog of war is one thing, but there need to be ways for the observant to figure out what's going on besides just sending more guys out to draw fire. regards, --Rett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMplayer Posted January 16, 2001 Author Share Posted January 16, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Offwhite: If your infantry are unengaged and didn't spot the bazooka when it fired, then it's probably not very close to them... Knowing where it's not is a step toward knowing where it is. The AI likes to open up at long range with hand-held AT weapons, so I'd look for likely positions out to 200m. If you're playing a human, perhaps he was hiding and all your boys walked/drove past him?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Interesting tips; thx for posting this. regards, --Rett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMplayer Posted January 16, 2001 Author Share Posted January 16, 2001 Originally posted by Spook: You won't see a "hole", because to show one would require an added graphic texture file for EACH vehicle model's surface of ALL vehicles. Or, to have a "hole overlay" would require added programming to place this over the texture of the vehicle surface that was penetrated. Makes sense. All I am actually asking for is that the 'detailed armor hit' specifies _left_ or _right_ side penetration, instead of just saying 'side' penetration. To see what I mean, imagine how people would react if it vaguely said, 'front or maybe rear penetration', 'top penetration or maybe bottom penetration from a mine'. Saying 'side' penetration is the same: 'right or maybe left side penetration'. Like nobody there has eyes or half a brain to see where the hole is. Soldiers that stupid are soldiers soon to die. It isn't fog of war anymore, it's stoned haze of war. On most occasions anyway, if you are trying to find out what knocked out an enemy vehicle, watching replays several times from different camera angles will reveal both the killing projectile and where it came from. Not it the unit firing is unobserved as was the case here. FOW is interesting to the degree that there are realistic and interesting ways of overcoming it. There are already many of these in CM, but the richer and more varied the information gathering environment of the game, the better it will be. Specifying left or right side penetration would be one such way of making the game _sharper_. thx for replying, regards, --Rett [This message has been edited by CMplayer (edited 01-16-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergei Posted January 16, 2001 Share Posted January 16, 2001 But shouldn't the game in such case stop telltaling if the shell hit front or rear? It's not giving any more away to tell if it hit the left or the right side of hull or turret. Of course, if the tank exploded, there might not be anybody left to tell the commander what was penetrated. And any graphics don't help if Sherman's turret would have blown into air and made double-Immelman before landing so perfectly that the judges gave it full 10 for artistic vision and technical implementation. So, the real question would be: is the Detailed Hit option realistic at all? Maybe not. Does it add to playability? Yes, and I think that's more important here. After all, if you know that the shell hit the left side of your turret, you still have almost 180 degrees to cover (as it could have comen in almost a straight angle, ricocheting of course) and a distance of 10-3000+ metres. It's not very helpful yet. Just my two pennies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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