Slapdragon Posted August 1, 2001 Share Posted August 1, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hilltopper: Ahhh...thanks, SlapDragon. I fiqured someone would know the answer. BTW, the term "easy 8" was also a reference to the E8 designation. Probably not telling you anything new.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Well, the E8 was the test designation for an M4A3 (76)W with HVSS armor, and a turret from the T-23 medium tank project. The M4A3E8 was rushed to the field and still called this, but was officially carried in the books as the designation I used. The problem was that it was still called the E8 when it went into combat for the first time, and the name stuck. The "Easy 8" was loved by tankers that used it. In Korea, it proved more than a match for the T-34/85. The 76mm, while not having the hitting power of the 17pounder or the HE effectiveness of the 75mm, was a very accurate piece. The HVSS gave it great mobility, it was extremely reliable under the worst condition, it was easy to train mechanics to repair its Ford engine, and its rubber tracks gave it a smooth ride. Since Shermns in the game die like red shirts in Star Trek, it is easy to forget that the E8 was actually preferred by many tank crews over the M26 during Korea and that it was capable of putting tens of thousands of war miles on its chassis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slapdragon Posted August 1, 2001 Share Posted August 1, 2001 Oh yeah, The E8 fought toe to toe against T-64, T-62, and T-55 tanks in 1973. It had a 75mm high velocity gun (the M50) or a 105mm gun (M51) but the basic chassis was so reliable that it is still in second line service and in storage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snake Eyes Posted August 1, 2001 Share Posted August 1, 2001 With our myopic view of the CM battlefield it's hard for some to visualize all the important factors that make an AFV successful. Half the battle is getting your tanks to the battlefield. This factor is not represented in CMBO. The German 'big cats' always show up. In reality that was not the case. As a consequence, AFV's such as the M4 and T34 were in the right place at the right time, delivering the support that carried the day. In the heyday of German advances it was the PzIII, PzIV, Pz38t and related models that propelled the German forces across most of Europe. Could Panthers and Tigers have accomplished the same? It's certainly debatable. Even the reliable light and middleweight German tanks had reached the limit of their endurance at the gates of Moscow. I venture to say that the German heavies would have succumbed long before that. The M4 raced across France and only stopped when fuel supplies couldn't keep up. Is it better to have the guarantee of a mediocre tank in the fight or is it better to have a good tank 25% of the time? With the new rarity factor included in CMBB, we'll soon see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chad Harrison Posted August 1, 2001 Author Share Posted August 1, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Snake Eyes: Half the battle is getting your tanks to the battlefield. This factor is not represented in CMBO. The German 'big cats' always show up. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> for ME QB, that would be a realistic touch, but a freaking frustrating one! you just spent 240 pts on a vetern panther, and then you are informed that it has broken down before it reached the battle! for scenarios, maybe it would be nice to have a random factor figure who "shows" up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hilltopper Posted August 1, 2001 Share Posted August 1, 2001 Interesting history lesson, Slapdragon. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snake Eyes Posted August 1, 2001 Share Posted August 1, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chad Harrison: for ME QB, that would be a realistic touch, but a freaking frustrating one! you just spent 240 pts on a vetern panther, and then you are informed that it has broken down before it reached the battle! for scenarios, maybe it would be nice to have a random factor figure who "shows" up.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> That's probably why BTS will make it an option. This is not something that the 'big cat' lovers are going to like at all. But it's a problem that their real counterparts faced. Will it be worth the risk to try for that KT, or should I go for the StuGIII? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chad Harrison Posted August 1, 2001 Author Share Posted August 1, 2001 even better yet, how would you like to have a fuel level for your big cats! here you are, about to outflank all the allied tanks and then your tank goes put put puuuuut . . .nothing! and you watch your 500 pt KT get shot on the flank by a 105 pt stuart! thankyou BTS for leaving this one out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Ausf B Posted August 2, 2001 Share Posted August 2, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Snake Eyes: That's probably why BTS will make it an option. This is not something that the 'big cat' lovers are going to like at all.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Um, I may be misunderstanding what you are saying, and if so, nevermind. But there is no provision in the CM2 rarity option for a tank or unit purchased to not show up in the battle. Rarity only affects unit price. If you buy it, it will be there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hilltopper Posted August 2, 2001 Share Posted August 2, 2001 Now there's an interesting tweak...fuel limitations. Too bad that's not an option you can turn off and on. Would really be a factor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triumvir Posted August 2, 2001 Share Posted August 2, 2001 Don't forget too that after the Israelis got their Mag'achs, they converted their M50s and M51s (and if you like irony, the M50 used what was basically the Panther's 75mm -- a GIAT 75mm that was also used in the AMX-13 and adopted from the battalion of Panthers that the French used till 1949) into self-propelled howitzers, mounting their Soltam 155s. I think there are even still some Sherman recovery vehicles in reserve somewhere in Israel. See for more details Apparently they're still in use in Chile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snake Eyes Posted August 2, 2001 Share Posted August 2, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Vanir Ausf B: ...Rarity only affects unit price. If you buy it, it will be there.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> You are right. The following is a quote from Steve: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>posted 01-08-2001 12:55 AM --------------------------------------------- Guys, First of all, remember that the Rarity system will be OPTIONAL. Key word in the previous sentence is "optional". Those of you who have been here for a while will remember that people FREAKED when they thought this system would not be OPTIONAL, even though I used the word OPTIONAL in every single post. So people, please remember that this system will be OPTIONAL Skewing the points is the best way to affect reduced use of certain units. Major Tom listed an example, but I don't think it is a good illustration of the system. He assumed the point increases would be rather small. On the contrary, they should not be. Let me invent a example for discussion to show you how it *might* work using a PzIV J, Panther G (late), and Tiger E (late)... BASE COST (as is now, based on inherent capabilities) PzIV - 122 Panther - 191 Tiger - 173 For June of 1944 (Western Front) the costs might look like this: PzIV - 122 Panther - 382 Tiger - 1073 This is based on a quick source I consluted that showed the basic tank force to be roughly 2x more likely to have a PzIV than a Panther and 10x more likely to have a PzIV than a Tiger. We would not use exactly this method, but something similar using a particular baseline standard and multiplying all vehicles (and all other units to their own standards). Now... Major Tom, for a 500 point battle, which vehicle would you take? Tiger is rulled out completely, and you would be a fool to take a Panther. And if you did, you would only get one. So this system, without modification, will neatly eliminate less common vehicles from the majority of games. Even 1000 point games would most likely see PzIVs than Panthers, and still not Tigers. OK, before you say "NO TIGERS" , there will be more to this system than just a straight multiplier. Like some have mentioned above, there will be a "roll" that will vary the modifiers a little bit. It might allow the player to buy a Tiger for 300 points for a particular battle instead of 1073. Now for a 500 point battle, this still probably rules it out (in this case), but if you were playing a 1500 point battle it might be doable. Who knows. It is as much up to the player as it is up to CM's system. And people... don't worry about restarting stuff to get a better "roll". We'll make sure this is not possible to do. Rather easy, actually. Just have the second player get to purchase his units BEFORE the first player sees the purchase list. If there are other security holes, we'll patch 'em up as well. Thanks, Steve<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> [ 08-01-2001: Message edited by: Snake Eyes ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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