17 pdr HE rounds

[Pud]

I note in the data for the 17 pdr (in this case in the Challenger) it carries HE rounds but there is no stats on the HE rounds (on the info/kills pop up). I checked other 17 pdr guns but could find any stats on the 17 pdr HE rounds. Can anyone point me in the right direction here, does it equate to HE from a 75mm?

Im updating Guachi's CM_database to 1.12 and adding in some additional data. I emailed him for permission to do so but he hasnt responded, so guachi, if your here let me know if you have any problems with me doing this.

[offtaskagain]

Their penetration is probably higher due to the projectile travelling faster.

[guachi]

The e-mail address in my profile is wrong.

But be my guest and change anything your little heart desires.

Jason

[Wolfe]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pud:

[QB]I note in the data for the 17 pdr (in this case in the Challenger) it carries HE rounds but there is no stats on the HE rounds (on the info/kills pop up). I checked other 17 pdr guns but could find any stats on the 17 pdr HE rounds. Can anyone point me in the right direction here, does it equate to HE from a 75mm?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, it's higher. The 17pdr can penetrate the early StuH's upper hull at 500m with its HE, but not the StuH late. StuH is 95% of 73/10 (about 69/10) and StuH late is 80/10 (76/10). It sometimes took a couple or even a few hits before penetrating the lesser StuG's armor, so it may be just inside the lethal range (although I guess that could be due to the rounded mantlet. Hmmm shoulda picked a better target ). It cannot penetrate a Tiger's side armor (80/0) at 500m at all. All tanks were hull down, so lower hull does not matter. The US 76 gun's HE cannot penetrate any of these at 500m. The charts list the US 75mm only penetrating 42mm at 500m.

Note: tests were done in Nov44. Starting in Feb45, many of the Allied guns change their penetration data slightly (possibly due to better shells?). I don't know why, but they do. This doesn't seem to affect the outcome, though (StuG late is still impenetrable to 17pdr at 500m).

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Im updating Guachi's CM_database to 1.12 and adding in some additional data.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

:cool:

- Chris

Edited to note rounded mantlet on StuG.

[ 10-21-2001: Message edited by: Wolfe ]

[gunnergoz]

I must be missing something here...are we talking about penetrating armor with high explosive rounds? As in HE rounds that normally have point-detonating or quick-timed fuzes? Or are we speaking of armor-piercing rounds?

Most HE rounds in my collection have soft metal fuzes that wouldn't penetrate much beynd maybe a car or truck cab before exploding, if that.

[offtaskagain]

That HE filler is capable of cracking metal you know.

[Pud]

Chris, I am actually using your excel tables (which are great) to update the database. I hope you dont object either. If this is going to be re-released to the public I'm hoping it can be done so with the joint approval (with appropriate copyright references) of yourself and Jason. I will of course send it to both of you for final approval and will not be released unless you both agree.

Im learning excel as Im doing this thing so hopefully its going to work as well as Jasons original. (ie not to many bugs adding in)

Regards

Bruce (aka...

[ 10-22-2001: Message edited by: Pud ]

[gunnergoz]

Well, yes, HE obviously has a specific blast effect...but it's resulting damage (based upon point detonation) to an armored surface would be so variable as to be almost unpredictable...the target itself could have so many variables impinging upon blast effect that I would forsee significant difficulties in devising prediction of the effect of an HE round upon a generic "armor base" such as is done with AP round penetration tables.

And presumeably we're not talking about HESH/HEP rounds, after all, which do have a specific effect (internal spalling) that they count upon for damaging the interior of tanks.

HE used on the outside of a tank might damage external components, vision devices, antenna, possibly protruding m.g.'s and the like...but penetration prior to exploding?

So it seems to me that external blast effect could hardly be described in penetrative terms.

Now, there are AP rounds that have an HE filler that base detonates upon penetration...these are usually found in warships, probably due to the size of the round that accomodates them.

Maybe I'm just dense, tired and sleepy, but exactly what are we speaking of here?

[Wolfe]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pud:

Chris, I am actually using your excel tables (which are great) to update the database. I hope you dont object either.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No. Not at all. Feel free.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I will of course send it to both of you for final approval and will not be released unless you both agree.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Please don't. I already have version 1.10 as well as the pics, and really don't want to get a multi-megabyte file through email. If you want to send just the Excel file that would be fine, but since I don't have Excel (just the free viewer), the pulldown menus don't work for me. So I can't check its functionality for you.

BTW, I got a bit more data for HE on the Firefly. At 100m, its HE can *barely* get through the 80mm side armor of the Tiger (takes multiple hits). The kill odds are even given as 'None'. But it can easily defeat the Tiger's side lower side armor at 1000m. It can also punch holes in the Panther's rear UH, side Tur, and side UH. Lets see if this table works (number for HE are minimums; what the gun can penetrate; actual penetration may be higher).

I don't know what other vehicles to test to try to get the numbers closer to their maximums, so that may be all I can do.

And for that matter I'm not sure how the HE penetration calculations are done. If what gunnergoz said is accurate and Charles modelled it like that, then in-game testing for HE penetration may be rather pointless; depending more on luck of the draw rather than reliable penetration.

- Chris

[ 10-22-2001: Message edited by: Wolfe ]

[offtaskagain]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by gunnergoz:

And presumeably we're not talking about HESH/HEP rounds, after all, which do have a specific effect (internal spalling) that they count upon for damaging the interior of tanks.

HE used on the outside of a tank might damage external components, vision devices, antenna, possibly protruding m.g.'s and the like...but penetration prior to exploding?

So it seems to me that external blast effect could hardly be described in penetrative terms.

Now, there are AP rounds that have an HE filler that base detonates upon penetration...these are usually found in warships, probably due to the size of the round that accomodates them.

Maybe I'm just dense, tired and sleepy, but exactly what are we speaking of here?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just plain old HE. I have seen some mention of various countries using HE in the way you mention, to screw up optics and the like. Most of the German AP (Pzgr 39) had an explosive filler of around 100 grams, more than enough to screw up the inside of a tank. I'm not sure of the physics behind it, but 16" battleship HE rounds are perfectly capable of penetrating 16 feet of concrete, which would suggest HE does have some effect on the penetration of armor.

[Stalin's Organ]

16" HE rounds wouldn't penetrate 16 feet of concrete, but the AP rounds might!!

Unlike relatively small calibre tank ammo, all naval ammo contains a significant amount of HE.

The difference is in the thickness of the steel at the point.

An AP round has a very thick nose and so less HE, "Common Shell" is moderate in both departments, while HE has a thin nose for maximum HE weight.

HE for naval was a specialist ammor for shore bombardments, and usually not carried. Common shell was the standard ammo, with AP for very "hard" targets.

[gunnergoz]

Stalin's Organ's point is well taken. Naval ammunition has base detonating fuzes embedded in the bottom of the shell which aren't damaged during the armor penetration process. Tank rounds, being smaller, have point detonating fuzes on the tip of the projectile...the fuze is made of softer metal (basically clockwork quality, as is the mechanism itself) and would never survive, let alone function, following impact with armor...hence my point about tank HE rounds detonating outside of the armor.

I cannot recall ever seeing official penetration figures for HE tank rounds...only armor piercing rounds are rated this way, because this is what they are designed to do. Thus my confusion seeing the earlier posters speaking of "HE penetration" statistics...I don't think there are such figures.

So please, if you can, illuminate me further on the 17-pounder HE round penetration stats of which were spoken earlier in this thread.

[Patgod]

pzgr .39 was an ap round with HE filling. its fused seemed to survive just fine.

[Pud]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by gunnergoz:

"HE penetration" statistics...I don't think there are such figures.

So please, if you can, illuminate me further on the 17-pounder HE round penetration stats of which were spoken earlier in this thread.<hr></blockquote>

The stats/kills pop up box in the game lists all vehicle and guns with "penetration" stats for two types of ammo, germans only ever have 2 so no drama there. Allies can have 3 rounds HE, AP &T but the popup only ever has 2 HE, AP or AP +T, I was hoping to be able to get all three were applicable and put that in the database.

All the axis have a penetration value for their HE, penetration may be the wrong term though going by this discussion, but its the concept value im after.

[ 10-22-2001: Message edited by: Pud ]</p>

[gunnergoz]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Patgod:

pzgr .39 was an ap round with HE filling. its fused seemed to survive just fine.<hr></blockquote>

And the fuze was located where...? If it was anywhere survivable, it would have to be internal or base-mounted. The tip of an AP round has to be treated for penetration and would not lend itself to house a delicate fuze. Again, a round is either HE or AP. Some AP rounds have HE filler, but they are not HE rounds. HE rounds are not rated for penetrative effect upon armor, though they may have collateral utility in damaging the vehicle or it's components.

[offtaskagain]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Stalin's Organ:

16" HE rounds wouldn't penetrate 16 feet of concrete, but the AP rounds might!!

Unlike relatively small calibre tank ammo, all naval ammo contains a significant amount of HE.

The difference is in the thickness of the steel at the point.

An AP round has a very thick nose and so less HE, "Common Shell" is moderate in both departments, while HE has a thin nose for maximum HE weight.

HE for naval was a specialist ammor for shore bombardments, and usually not carried. Common shell was the standard ammo, with AP for very "hard" targets.<hr></blockquote>

I beg to differ. Listed penetetration of reinforced concrete for the guns carried on the Iowa class ships is 16.5 ft at 10,000 yards. The AP can punch through 27.5 ft. The 16" ammo for the Iowa class ships only had a 154 pound burster, which would leave a 1746 lb steel case. The AP carried a 40.5 lb burster, with a 2659.5 lb case. As far as I have been able to determine HC (High Capacity) was just as common as AP.

[ 10-22-2001: Message edited by: panzerwerfer42 ]</p>