A fresh coat of Panzergrau.

[Olle Petersson]

First a little disclaimer:

This posting is not meant to put anyone down. I really enjoy the effort all modmakers put in their nice work.

Now for the main subject:

Now and again a new mod featuring some vehicle in grey is issued. All of them are in a pretty light shade, as if bleeched by the sun for a long time, even if everything else suggest that they've just been painted. (No wear or dust and so on...)

From what I've understood the Panzergrau was actually almost black, with a hint of green.

To get a hint of what it might have looked like I've darkened Bunelle's recent Jagdpanther to get a closer match.

Here's the result:

What do you think?

Bonuslook:

To match the other mods I use, I've chosen to use Gordon Molek's Hetzer (available at CMHQ).

However, I noticed that the shield for the MG was in plain yellow, which the rest of the vehicle isn't. So I made a modified gun shield to match the camo (and leave a see through slit above the MG).

Cheers

Olle

[Panzer_Meyer]

That looks NICE, but a bit to dark. Is it just the pic or is realy that dark in the game. Nice work though!

[Michael Emrys]

Nope. Panzergrau really was a fairly light gray. I've painted microarmor using paint chips as a guide. This color scheme was dropped some time after the campaign against France in 1940 though, so not really relevant to CM:BO. None of the vehicle illustrations I've ever seen show anything as dark as what you have presented, at least not as an overall color. In fact, I don't recall any AFVs from this period being painted in just a single color. It may have happened, but if so it was rare enough that I haven't come across it. The tanks and other vehicles of the Afrika Korps were painted a single shade of sand yellow, and I have seen indications that some armor on the Eastern Front was painted the same way, but that too was relatively rare and I haven't seen it employed after 1943.

Michael

[Diceman]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Michael emrys:

In fact, I don't recall any AFVs from this period being painted in just a single color. It may have happened, but if so it was rare enough that I haven't come across it. The tanks and other vehicles of the Afrika Korps were painted a single shade of sand yellow, and I have seen indications that some armor on the Eastern Front was painted the same way, but that too was relatively rare and I haven't seen it employed after 1943.

Michael<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Depends on when it rolled out of the factory actually. From aproximately Feb 43 to Aug 44 tanks rolled out of the factory in solid panzer yellow. Camoflauge colors were issued to units in the field, but it really depended on individual units and crews as to whether, and how those paints were applied. Check this link out. The most concise history of Pnzer colors I've seen: http://www.missing-lynx.com/panzerfacts/current.htm

[Bruno Weiss]

I think it's too dark.

[bfamily33]

Is MikeT in here? :confused: Nope?

Mike E (not T) wrote: "This color scheme was dropped some time after the campaign against France in 1940"

France 1940 and early gray =

Lo-Res and grade C stuff but what the heck, it's a nice change once in while.

Can't say anymore. If you see MikeT, don't mention this post.

[ 08-29-2001: Message edited by: bfamily33 ]

[Kwazydog]

Heya Guys...hehe, Ive been doing quite a bit of reading myself on vehicle colouring, particually on the Eastern Front.

Here is some intersting info I found in 'The Eastern Front - Armour Camouflage and Marking 1941 - 1945' by Steve Zaloga and James Grandsen.

If you are interesting in doing up a Paner Grey mod....

The colour Panzer Grey is describe as being..."a very dark blue grey". Im guessing that this colour did fade to a lighter grey though over time, being more like the grey we often see used in books.

*but*...

"German Armour retained the panzer grey overall finish until 18 February 1943. When a new camouflage system was introduced by HM 1943 Nr. 181. The new base colour, called dark yellow, was a greyish mustard that had a tendency to fade to a very light greyish sand shade. In addition, units were issued with two more colours, a drab olive green and a red brown which could be applied over the base dark yellow to create a disruptive patterns. These colours were supplied in 2kg or 20kg tins."

And further down he says...

"New armoured vehicles arrived from the factories painted in dark yellow overall, and older vehicles were repainted as they were overhauled"

Thought it may be of interest to the conversation to work out just what colour should be used when. To be honest I doubt there would have been too many vehicles in service on the Western Front that still retained the Paner Grey well over a year after it was phased out, but that dosnt mean there wasnt .

Dan

[Fieldmarshall]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by bfamily33:

Is MikeT in here? :confused: Nope?

Mike E (not T) wrote: "This color scheme was dropped some time after the campaign against France in 1940"

France 1940 and early gray =

If it was 1940...why do they have StuG III Ausf Gs with schurzen?

Lo-Res and grade C stuff but what the heck, it's a nice change once in while.

Can't say anymore. If you see MikeT, don't mention this post.

[ 08-29-2001: Message edited by: bfamily33 ]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Gordon]

Well, here's my interpretation of "Dunkel Grau" using Fernando's SdKfz 251s.

While I agree that these would not be common in the CM:BO timeframe, there where probably a few around, and Wise in "D-Day to Berlin" has a drawing of a SdKfz 250/8 with a "stick" pattern of rot brun over dunkel grau.

btw,

Olle, you might want to double check, but probably the reason I left the MG shield solid yellow was that the texture is re-used somewhere else on the model. If that doesn't bother you, go for it. Just wanted you to be warned.

Gordon

[ 08-29-2001: Message edited by: Gordon ]

[bfamily33]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gordon:

Well, here's my interpretation of "Dunkel Grau" using Fernando's SdKfz 251s.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

See, now that's Hi-Res and grade A+ work. See the difference class? When can we get those Gordon? Soon I hope.

[bfamily33]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fieldmarshall:

If it was 1940...why do they have StuG III Ausf Gs with schurzen?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry about that. Mike T is keeping the shorty barrel Stug IIIB to himself. I looks nice and I would have displayed that if I had it. That's why I put that Stug way in the back. I guess not back far enough.

[russellmz]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gordon:

Well, here's my interpretation of "Dunkel Grau" using Fernando's SdKfz 251s.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

hmmmmmmm, not bad. where can i get a copy?

[Gordon]

The dunkel grau SdKfz 251 series (summer and winter versions) are with Fernando for final testing/approval, along with about a billion other mods , and once he's given them his seal of approval it's off for posting, so figure a couple of months.

Gordon

[MikeT]

bfamily33, I am here, sneaking around as always. I have working on the early war Stug and couldn't get some ideas to work. But do have the bobbed barrel Stug now but would like some other ideas for the 1939-40 period.

Oh, I am not sure about a comment that field gray was dropped about France. I have several books here with references to field gray panzes in Russia up to 1942. Now maybe new builds but the older tanks seem to keep rolling on.

MikeT

[Michael Emrys]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gordon:

Well, here's my interpretation of "Dunkel Grau" using Fernando's SdKfz 251s.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Verrrrrry nice, Gordon. This is much closer to what I am talking about, though it still looks just a tad too dark (at least on my monitor). But very close and quite nicely finished.

Thanks to others about the additional info on color schemes. I did know about the two colors applied at the unit level over the basic yellow, but it slipped my mind while writing my earlier post.

Michael

[Olle Petersson]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Michael emrys:

Nope. Panzergrau really was a fairly light gray. I've painted microarmor using paint chips as a guide.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>If it was fairly light, why was the grey PzKw IV that was rushed to the battle of Mechili (April 7, 1941) described as "black"?

I've also seen a couple of colour pictures from the early Polish and French campaigns with tanks in near black, especially at closeups.

At a distance it might have looked a bit brighter, if the flat surface reflected surrounding light areas. And I expect it to get bleeched by sun, dust and washing.

It's also noteworthy that Humbrol's colour named "Tank Grey" is pretty close to what I've done.

Cheers

Olle

[Olle Petersson]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gordon:

Olle, you might want to double check, but probably the reason I left the MG shield solid yellow was that the texture is re-used somewhere else on the model.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I haven't noticed it anywhere else.

/Olle

[Gordon]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Olle Petersson:

I haven't noticed it anywhere else.

/Olle<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Olle,

Just did a quick check. The MG shield (3216.bmp) is also used for the ends of the schuerzen, the braces of the schuerzen, and most noticably, a portion of the hull front underneath the mantlet.

Just FYI,

Gordon

[Michael Emrys]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Olle Petersson:

If it was fairly light, why was the grey PzKw IV that was rushed to the battle of Mechili (April 7, 1941) described as "black"?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Haven't the foggiest. Can't recall any reference to that particular tank. Where did you come across it?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I've also seen a couple of colour pictures from the early Polish and French campaigns with tanks in near black, especially at closeups.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So have I. Doesn't mean that it was a widespread practice. I've noticed that there is a lot of variation from unit to unit.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>At a distance it might have looked a bit brighter, if the flat surface reflected surrounding light areas. And I expect it to get bleeched by sun, dust and washing.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

All true. Also possibly the case that some photos may have made it appear darker than was really the case as well.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>It's also noteworthy that Humbrol's colour named "Tank Grey" is pretty close to what I've done.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It may take me a while to dig out my source as all my references are currently packed away due to moving and little time available for unpacking. As I recall, it was in a magazine-format book called, IIRC, Panzer Colors, though I may be confusing that title with another book. In addition to providing a paint chip, the article also provided a formula for mixing the colors. I think the formula was based on Humbrol paints, but that's one of the things I need to confirm once I get my hands on the book.

Michael

[ 08-30-2001: Message edited by: Michael emrys ]

[Olle Petersson]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Michael emrys:

Can't recall any reference to that particular tank. Where did you come across it?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>In some book. IIRC it was "Desert Fox vs Desert Rats" ,or vice versa, written by some German author.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Also possibly the case that some photos may have made it appear darker than was really the case as well.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Not when you consider that it was a closeup of the TC (in correct shade), with only the turret top visible in the picture.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>In addition to providing a paint chip, the article also provided a formula for mixing the colors. I think the formula was based on Humbrol paints, ...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Painting miniature models, as I think the colour formula in that book was designed for, require the use of a brighter shade than the full scale original had, in order to make it look right.

This is due to the optical phenomenon that a large dark surface cover a relatively large field of vision. Therefore the eyes adjust to that and make the little reflected light look brighter than if you look at tiny thing in the same colour and surrounding.

Cheers

Olle