Camera Controls/ Extreme Fog Of War For CM2

[Midnight Warrior]

I've been playing a really big scenario (Battle of San Pietro) and have noticed that the current camera controls are hard to use due to the large number of units and very hilly terrain. I think there are a few improvements that might help.

1. Being able to tilt the camera angle so as to be able to look up hills.

2. Having a recall last camera view button that lets one slew off to some point of interest (e.g. potential target) and then snap back to where you stared (e.g.firing unit). It would also be nice to have a recall for the +/- step option. When stepping through units sometimes one clicks on a neighbor unit which jumps the step to the neighboring unit. It would be nice to be able to recall the last old stepped unit and continue cycling from where one left off. (of course- not to open a can of worms)but a roster my alliviate this problem)

3.Click and dragable/pointable preset cameras that can be selected via the function keys

4. Roving camera optioins for suggestion 3 that maintains relative offset to some unit of interest (e.g. 10 meters behind direction of motion/firing).

5. The ability to rapidly slew a camera along the movement plot of a unit along with a slew L/R control (e.g. uses mouse up/down to advance along length of route and left/right for looking left or right of ground track of route leg)

(These next ideas are ways to simulate Extreme Fog Of War)

6.Be able to limit camera height by unit type/nationality. For example basic aquads might be limited to level 1 or 2. Platoon HQs can go up to level say 4. Compnay HQ's and FO to all levels. This doesn't mean that somehow HQ's can magically fly into the air but rather models (abstractly) the purview (rather than the view) of the unit (i.e. basic squads primarily only care what is happening around them while higher eschelon units care about what is further down the road. Also, higher eschelon units have more resources (e.g. maps, radios, etc) to give them a longer look capability than a basic squad. These limits can be different for different nationalities (e.g. Russion vs German) and different time periods. The camera location would be limited to the selected unit or could be slewed along its planned route (see 5 above). This would allow the unit to follow roads and make turns around corners etc even tough it has restricted camera viewability.

7. Be able set a time limit for each unit type, nationality, comand status, etc. The clock would start when the unit is clicked on. During this time the player can slew his camera around from the units location (or a region about that) and along his route. The player could also make the units movement/fire orders. Once the clock runs out he looses any more command over that unit (except perhaps a cancel order). When the player selects his next unit the clock is reset with the appropraite time for that unit type, etc, and this continues until all his units are moved or perhaps a master timer goes off. This simulates the degree of C2, training, and initiative a unit has and would force players with shorter time limits (e.g. Russians) to use group move commands or simplier orders. It's not that time runs faster or slower for different units but rather it takes more time for certain units to make plans and decisions than others. Since one can't speed up or slow downs the players thinking speed, instead one can limit (more or less) his decision time. This is also a compromise between the current system and the click fest of realtime ops.

BTW, all these restrictions apply during the command phase and not the action playback which probably should be left unrestricted as is for both practical reason and for gaming enjoyment (i.e. allow viewing of the action from any different angles at ones leisure).

During normal Fog Of War Play (as opposed to extreme fog of war)these restrictions would be disabled.

[This message has been edited by Midnight Warrior (edited 03-21-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Midnight Warrior (edited 03-21-2001).]

[Leonidas]

I like the non-extreme FOW suggestions. It would be nice to have a tiltable camera, to pull back a little more from the battle without going to overhead view and losing all the elevation information.

A smoother, freer camera would also be fun aesthetically, as you could start with a closeup of a soldier's face, swoop back to take in the entire battlefield, then swoop back in for a closeup of someone else. But I assume (ahem) that BTS has already figured all this out.

It would be nice to plant little reference flags without giving orders, just to make it easier to find significant points in the terrain after you've scouted them out. For example, you get the camera down on the ground and discover a little hollow that's just big enough to hide a platoon from the enemy tanks. It's the sort of subtle thing that you would never notice unless you were at elevation 1. It would be nice to be able to plant a little marker, so that you can find that spot again later in the turn without having to go back to elevation 1 and rooting about for it.

[MOS was 71331]

I'd certainly like to see some faster way of selecting units, particularly FOs, when I forget exactly where they are. When you have 100+ units in a game, hitting + or - repeatedly to find the one I'm after is a real pain.

One method might be to use Option-B to get to the B platoon leader and then +/- to get to the squad of interest. Option-T would select the first MG, bazooka, flame thrower, FO, etc. Option-V would similarly get you into your list of vehicles. While +/- is sufficient for platoons as they have only a few components, some additional controls might be needed to move quickly to the type of vehicle or T weapon you're after. Perhaps the vehicles should be numbered by type so a + would move from V20 to V21 while option+ would move from V20 (say a jeep) to V24, the first of your Priests.

Another useful feature would be some easy way to select a passenger after selecting a vehicle with passengers. I have yet to discover a way easily to select the .50 caliber MG passenger in a scout car. I can't seem to do it from any view of the car, so I find the MG by brute force using + or - until the passenger unit is highlighted in the car. That's a real pain.

Maybe the easiest way to unload a passenger would be to add an unload command to the vehicle's command list.

[deanco]

Hi Mos was 71331,

Yeah, I posted the same idea a while ago about Option-T and Option-V. I would add Option-C to access the first crew as well. And make it so you are obliged to hit Option-C to be able to scroll your crews. In other words, during normal + and - scrolling, the crews would never come up on the list. One would have to click a crew first, or hit Option-C, then + and -, to look at every crew on the battlefield. Perhaps these could be made mutually exclusive. In other words, when you click a crew and hit + and -, you will just get crews in the list. This would be a way to rapidly send your crews to the rear, easily.

Let's face it, crews in CM have gone from being rather interesting "pieces", capable of limited offensive action, to their current status of scaredy-cat wimps with broken morale and low ammo. Whether this is right or not is not for me to say. This subject has already been discussed, heheh. But the end result is that now crews have become nothing but a liability to the player. They are good for absolutely nothing except running away to fight another day. OK, so let's make an easy way for the player to retreat them, what say? They are just cluttering up the battlefield as it stands.

I honesly wonder if there is not a way to conceptualize crews and take them out of the game entirely. For example, 'you lost 5 AFV's, that's 24 men, so since you lost a tactical defeat, you lose 17% of your crew strength to wounds or death, and that will be subtracted from your VP total or your availble crews for the next battle of the operation.'

Save some polygons this way too.

Anyway, glad to see others joining the bandwagon when it comes to these questions of ergonomy. Give me more!

(edit) To select a unit in a vehicule, hit Shift-V. It turns off the vehicules in the game. Then you can easily click on your guys. Don't forget to turn it back on, eh? You will be wondering where your tanks went!

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DeanCo--

CM interface mods: http://mapage.cybercable.fr/deanco/

so many games...so little time

[This message has been edited by deanco (edited 03-22-2001).]

[grunto2]

Originally posted by MOS was 71331:

I have yet to discover a way easily to select the .50 caliber MG passenger in a scout car.

i once had the same problem with clicking on the passenger units so i thought you might be interested in this:

try using shift-v to make the vehicles invisible.

what i do is hit shift-c to 4 times to make the units large, then hit shift-v to make the vehicles disappear, then make my passenger unloading moves.

when finished making debarkation moves, i then hit shift-v and shift-c (just once this time) and i'm back with vehicles visible and everything 'normal sized.'

...and all of the passenger debarkations are done.

andy

[aka_tom_w]

Originally posted by grunto2:

i once had the same problem with clicking on the passenger units so i thought you might be interested in this:

try using shift-v to make the vehicles invisible.

what i do is hit shift-c to 4 times to make the units large, then hit shift-v to make the vehicles disappear, then make my passenger unloading moves.

when finished making debarkation moves, i then hit shift-v and shift-c (just once this time) and i'm back with vehicles visible and everything 'normal sized.'

...and all of the passenger debarkations are done.

andy

I use the shift-v trick as well, it really is the best way to pick embarked passengers and debark them.

-tom w

[nick]

Originally posted by Midnight Warrior:

1. Being able to tilt the camera angle so as to be able to look up hills.

Try shift-a and shift-z.

nick

[Ellros]

I usually select the vehicle, then hit TAB to get the view lock, then go down to level 1 or 2. From there it's easy to see the passenger.

[Guest Rob/1]

There is a zoom command as well its the [ and ] keys...

[SuperTed]

Hey, I've been playing that scenario too!

I really like idea #1. If there was bit more freedom with camera movement, it would make things easier to "climb" hills without losing sight of the unit you want to follow.

Great ideas!

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SuperTed

Wild Bill and the Raiders

Boots & Tracks Team Member

Forward Observer

[Vinci]

I like the idea of increasing fog of war possibilities in CM2. As players I feel we still have too much control and information when compared to "the real life commander".

Some additions I see are:

1. less info on effects of hits on armor. Just yesterday I hit a Hetzer with gun hit. The hetzer moved on, but I knew it was not really a threat anymore.

2. experience levels. I do not believe we should know of the opponent short of capturing some.

I believe restrictions in terms of view of terrain (as are being suggested here) can also be considered, especially for the attacking side in enemy territory - a lot of timesd they had just maps (some not even that accurate) to go on.

If people feel uncomfortable with it can, as now, be included as an option. If you don't like it - turn the option off.

Vinci

[aka_tom_w]

yes there should be a strong lobby here for some additional "Extreme Fog of War" setting

Yes it should be optional and in addition to the other three levels of FOW that we have already.

I have been promoting this idea since the Beta Demo of CMBO

"I believe restrictions in terms of view of terrain (as are being suggested here) can also be considered, especially for the attacking side in enemy territory - a lot of times they had just maps (some not even that accurate) to go on."

This suggestion means that there "should" be a much larger role for recon units.

I have been told more than a few times that this game is NOT "Recon Mission" its COMBAT mission and all that recon "stuff" was done ahead of time and you get the results of it in the scenario breifing.

HOWEVER I still like the idea of actually having your friendly units get a REAL Line of Sight to certain terrain features to see if they are in fact in tact as you think they are on your "road map"

suppose your "road Map" indicates a bridge over a river, until you actually get a friendly unit to "see" that bridge with a clear LOS it may "appear" in tact, but if you can spot it then you can see if it has been destroyed and knocked down since the last intel you had. Same for buildings or others things that could be destoryed like roads, maybe they are now crater riddled, you won't know that until you have one friendly unit have clear LOS to that feature.

Keep the lobby up men....

We could still see GREAT things like Extreme FOW and "Iron Man play" where both players agree to fight the battle by allowing only the level one view from any friendly unit, (NOW that would be a challenge)

-tom w

[The Commissar]

I like extreme fog of war and all, but some things that are in CM now can be explained away as perfectly palusible.

Like being able to distinguish the experience level.

In al my games, I can only discover their experience if I am relatively close to the enemy troops, and if I have been engaged in a fire fight with them for several turns. Why am I able to do this you ask? Because while the game does not represent how the troops are fighting, shooting, ducking, running, and providing covering fire for each other, the internal game mechanics do.

Thus, your troops who observe this will generally be able to see how well the enemy is doing things like I mentioned. A conscript wont know to duck back down when shooting at the enemy, while a Vet squad will coordinate their efforts when possible to confuse and catch the enemy off guard.

I think it should be left the way it is as it relates to the experience. I do think, however, that we should not be able to see this if there is no Platoon/Company/Batallion commanders prescent. Troops are usually busy fighting and probably dont have the equipment or time necessary to radio the high command informing them of the exact enemy experience or numbers. Especially in CM2 on the Soviet side. Thats what platoon/whatever commanders are there for.

Just my thoughts on the matter.

Cheers!

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"...Every position, every meter of Soviet soil must be defended to the last drop of blood..."

- Segment from Order 227 "Not a step back"

[This message has been edited by The Commissar (edited 03-25-2001).]