LEGEND Posted February 28, 2001 Share Posted February 28, 2001 can anyone explain to me in detail what the these rules are?who is fionn?are they necessary? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ace Posted February 28, 2001 Share Posted February 28, 2001 check out this link http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/Forum1/HTML/010410.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gremlin Posted February 28, 2001 Share Posted February 28, 2001 Here too: http://www.rugged-defense.nl/cm/Fionn3.htm They're adopted as gentlemen's agreements to help balance games. ------------------ New to Combat Mission? Visit CM Boot Camp at Combat Missions for tips. "90% of the crucial decisions in this business are made by idiots who don't even play games." Cliff Bleszinski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeE Posted February 28, 2001 Share Posted February 28, 2001 Necessary? No, but many like to use them. I find them too much trouble (yes i am lazy) and prefer to play in snow or rain to prevent the purchase of most of the heavy stuff. Or I just let the AI select for both sides. In over 30 pbem games I've never had a problem w/o using them; of course others find them a good compromise so there is obviously merit to them. I should also add i have a pretty good group of pbem opponents (more good ones than I have time for games at the moment) so we don't really need them. Playing new partners often via TCP may be another matter. I also don't participate in any ladder play - they may be useful there but I obviously can't comment on that. I still like the snow or wet field idea for limiting the heavies though... Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KiwiJoe Posted February 28, 2001 Share Posted February 28, 2001 The 76 rule is bias in favour of the Germans IMO. It allows the Germans what is prolly the best all round AT gun in the game... the 75/L71. That beast penetrates 173mm at 100m... more than enough to deal with most allied tanks. However the allies are denied the thinnly armoured Jackson because of it's 90mm gun which only penetrates 143mm at 100m. The whole 76mm rule is set up to allow the german player the best overall tank in the game, the Panther, whilst removing the American's best weapon to deal with it at range: the Jackson. Why is the German Tiger 1 removed because of its gun when its 88/L56 gun only penetrates 145mm at 100m compared to the Panther's 173mm Strange isnt it??? If you wanted fair rules that limited uber tanks it would make sense to rate them on gun penetration not caliber. And if you did that then Panthers would be 1 of the 1st tanks on the chopping block. [This message has been edited by KiwiJoe (edited 02-28-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckeye Posted February 28, 2001 Share Posted February 28, 2001 Hey KiwiJ, nothing like crapping on a guy when he can't defend himself! As it happens, Fionn has recently changed the 76 rules, and the Jackson isn't excluded any longer, AFAIK. And Fionn has been known to play sides other than German (right, Pillar? ). So, if you don't like the rule, that's fine...but if you really don't like the person who wrote the rule, why don't you just say so? ------------------ "Don't lie to me, Gustav! You're a stinkin' Mac user!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KiwiJoe Posted February 28, 2001 Share Posted February 28, 2001 I have nothing at all agianst Fionn... I just think his rules are in favour of the german side. I was not aware that Jacksons are now included... this would go some way to making the rule more fair. Personally I allow players to use any unit they like I don't see any need for rules. Some times several light tanks can be more of a pain in the ass than 1-2 ubers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoePrivate Posted February 28, 2001 Share Posted February 28, 2001 You have to remember Fionn's 'Rules' of 75/76 were only established as a guideline for play, not as some strict formula that had to be adhered to. There's nothing stopping you or your opponent from modifying them to your liking or ignoring them altogether. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonidas Posted February 28, 2001 Share Posted February 28, 2001 Originally posted by Buckeye: As it happens, Fionn has recently changed the 76 rules, and the Jackson isn't excluded any longer, AFAIK. The Jackson is still excluded under the 76 rule on both of the above links. Does Fionn have a place where he posts the 'official' 75/76 rules? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Binkie Posted February 28, 2001 Share Posted February 28, 2001 Hey Kiwi, I think you should challenge Fionn to a game (you can find his email at CMHQ). He is plenty willing to take allies, and I'm sure would play you under the old 76 rules, i.e. no Jacksons for him. Then you have to come back here and report what happened. Leonidas, Fionn has not gotten around to updating the rules, at least as of a month ago. If enough people email him, though, maybe he would. Another error to the current web sheets: the Hetzer is actually allowed under the Short-75 rule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KiwiJoe Posted February 28, 2001 Share Posted February 28, 2001 The hetzer is allowed??? So the Germans get a unit that cant be penetrated by American 75mm guns? gee that sounds fair. The short 75 rule is worse than the 76-Panther rule. The Germans still get to use everything with the 75mm/L48. That gun can penetrate 131mm at 100m and has a reasonably high velocity which makes it pretty accurate at all ranges. However the Americans can't use anything with the 76mm gun. It ONLY penetrates 121mm at 100m and has about the same velocity as the german 75mm. So the Americans have to use their crappy 75mm which only penetrates 97mm at 100m and has such a low velocity it makes hitting anything over 500m a challenge. And becuase it only penetrates 78mm at 1000 yards all you have to do is buy stugs and keep them in a stand-off position at the back of the map. All the M4A3's with 76mm's and no extra armour (+) and the M10, M18 should be included in that rule for sure to make it fair. As for the 76's tungsten rounds... there not really an issue as a standard 76mm round will penetrate panzer IV's, stugs etc. Perhaps only the hetzer at 500+ m would have to fear it. But since it can't be penetrated frontally by 75mm or most 76mm rounds (at range with no lower hull hits) that seems fair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruno Weiss Posted February 28, 2001 Share Posted February 28, 2001 Leonidas asked a good question. Where is this update? I've used Rugged Defense as the link to these rules, but they still show the Jackson as excluded. I didn't see a date on the rule post either. If Fionn has reworked these, it would be good to know where they are at. ------------------ "Gentlemen, you may be sure that of the three courses open to the enemy, he will always choose the fourth." -Field Marshal Count Helmuth von Moltke, (1848-1916) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
North Star Posted February 28, 2001 Share Posted February 28, 2001 I play the Panther 76 "guidelines" a lot and find the current rules to work well. Including the Jackson would seem more than fair, certainly not an uber-weapon, but gives the Americans a reasonable chance against sloped armor. When the Allies select British, these guidelines can sometimes cause a mis-matched game. I have been both on the good end and the bad end of the Churchill in P76 games. If, as the axis, you do not expect the British and omit the Panther and its gun from your selection, them dang heavily armored Churchills can rule the battlefield and be almost impossible to overcome against a good player. The key, of course, is communication. If the allied player intends on playing British, I think he consider should notify the Boche. Or at least understand if the Axis asks for a chance to re-select units once he sees the proud British flag on the battle screen. ------------------ "Act after having made assessments. The one who first knows the measures of far and near wins - this the rule of armed struggle." Sun Tzu - The Art of War Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruno Weiss Posted February 28, 2001 Share Posted February 28, 2001 But where is the cotton pickin Fionn update being referred to above??????? ------------------ "Gentlemen, you may be sure that of the three courses open to the enemy, he will always choose the fourth." -Field Marshal Count Helmuth von Moltke, (1848-1916) [This message has been edited by Bruno Weiss (edited 02-28-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Space Thing Posted February 28, 2001 Share Posted February 28, 2001 Hello. Let me echo JoePrivates assertion here. Fionn's short 75 & Panther 76 "rules" are NOT hard and fast rules!!!!!!! They are guidelines. You can always pick and choose what you like from them. From the Rugged Defense site: "Despite the above so-called 'rules' and limitations listed here, it is still up to PBEM opponents to choose what type of CM battle they wish to play and the rules by which they wish to play them. These guidelines can be either helpful or just plain irritating depending on your point of view. Whatever rules you choose to play by, just be sure your opponent agrees with all of them before starting the battle. Proper communication beforehand is the key to safe and happy PBEMing." Personally speaking, I swear by them, because I like them a lot. They were devised in response to a perfectly valid desire. That is, to have less of an Uber-tank CM experience. I don't ALWAYS use them, but I do most of the time. Why? To have a more joyful gaming. Which is the whole point, IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Heidman Posted February 28, 2001 Share Posted February 28, 2001 Originally posted by Binkie: Hey Kiwi, I think you should challenge Fionn to a game (you can find his email at CMHQ). He is plenty willing to take allies, and I'm sure would play you under the old 76 rules, i.e. no Jacksons for him. Then you have to come back here and report what happened. . Ooga, ooga. Me Fionn beat up your Kiwi. Me have much testoserone. What exactly would that prove? Jeff Heidman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Posted February 28, 2001 Share Posted February 28, 2001 If I play with the P76 rules I insist on the following modifications: Panther not allowed Tiger I allowed Nashorn allowed Allowing the Panther but not the Tiger makes no sense at all. Allowing the Nashorn gives the Germans a good chance against Churchills without giving them an uber weapon (it is very thinly armored). BTW I just double checked and the Hetzer is not allowed under the 75 rule. ------------------ What a bunch of horsecrap. -Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
North Star Posted February 28, 2001 Share Posted February 28, 2001 Vanir - your modifications to the 76 guidelines make perfect sense. Personally, I would add to that making the Jackson available for the American player. Nashorn vs. Churchill is a great match-up with skillful player, not the uber-tank, having the advantage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Robert Hall Posted March 1, 2001 Share Posted March 1, 2001 For those of you who may be interested, Fionn Kelly only 'signed off' on his revised 'Panther-76 Rules' last weekend. The document detailing the 'Rules' has already been updated and is currently waiting to be posted at the Rugged Defense website. It should appear within a day or so. To summarise, Fionn has made the following changes to his 'Panther-76 Rules' with immediate effect to apply to CM v1.12 onwards: 1. The Tiger is now included under the 'Panther-76 Rule' since its armor is vulnerable to the 76mm gun's AP round. 2. Both 75mm and 76mm Sherman Jumbos are now allowed since the Panther can easily penetrate their frontal armor from medium range. 3. The Nashorn and the M36 Jacksons are now allowed since, although they have powerful guns, their armor is thin and they can be killed by any sort of ATG and tank gun. 4. The Panzer IV/70(V) (an up-armored JagdPanzer IV) is now included since, although its upper frontal armor is not usually vulnerable to a normal 76/793 AP round even with its lower (90%) armor quality rating, it is vulnerable frontally to any 76mm or 17 pounder Tungsten round. In addition, its thin side armor makes it very vulnerable to any flank shots. No changes have been made to the 'Short-75 Rules'. The Hetzer has never been allowed under the 'Short-75 Rules' to the best of my knowledge. And please remember these 'Rules' are only guidelines for people who prefer to limit the size of tank armament on the battlefield and perhaps enjoy a more tactical game than one dominated by uber tanks. If you do not like these 'Rules' or you wish to play to any other guidelines or have a completely open game, then that is entirely your choice. Just make sure both players understand what rules or guidelines, if any, they are playing to before the game starts. Anybody who thinks the original version of the rules favoured the German player is simply completely wrong IMO. Games played to these 'Rules' usually result in very evenly balanced games so long as the players themselves are reasonably evenly matched. From a personal perspective, I have won just as many times as Allies using either the Short-75 or Panther-76 variations as I have as Axis. Fionn devised these guidelines not solely based upon gun calibre and armor penetration but on other factors as well including armour thickness and first round hit probability which were prime factors in determining what is and what is not allowed under the 'Rules'. You may also be interested to know the results of over 1,400 CM games played over the last 9 months on Rugged Defense: Axis Wins: 650 46% Allied Wins: 607 43% Draws: 159 11% These figures include ALL games registered on the Rugged Defense CM Ladder which include QBs, Tournament Rounds, Scenarios and Own Design Maps so those results look pretty even to me. Robert Hall (Tomcat) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Priest Posted March 1, 2001 Share Posted March 1, 2001 Guys Fionn wins by using sound tactics and great organization. Honestly he would be just as deadly with a mix of PanzerIv's and Stugs than with Panthers and Stugs. He is a great calculator that makes few mistakes. I do not like his 76 rule but i also play with a group who actually is not attracted by King Tigers and Pershings so we do not need it nor does he only play by that rule. And before any of you ask yes I consider Fionn a friend and a very knowledgeable and upstanding, though somewhat outspoken, guy. And if you are going to be afraid of anything Fionn throws at you be afraid of his ability not some pixelated tank on your screen. ------------------ Sir are you sure you want to go to red alert...it would mean changing the bulb -Kryton of Red Dwarf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moriarty Posted March 1, 2001 Share Posted March 1, 2001 Originally posted by Jeff Heidman: Ooga, ooga. Me Fionn beat up your Kiwi. Me have much testoserone. What exactly would that prove? Jeff Heidman The characterization was made that Fionn always plays the Germans and created the rule to allow him the Panther while denying the U.S. the Jackson's 90mm gun ... thereby weighting the game in his favor. The assumptions of those statements are garbage. While I believe he does have a preference for the Germans, I know he has played the various Allied forces (with the possible exception of the Brits) and he wins more than he loses regardless of which side he takes. Is he invincible? No, of course not. But he is one of the better players. ------------------ "Why don't you say something righteous and hopeful for a change." -- Oddball "Crap." -- Moriarty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Binkie Posted March 1, 2001 Share Posted March 1, 2001 Originally posted by Jeff Heidman: Ooga, ooga. Me Fionn beat up your Kiwi. Me have much testoserone. What exactly would that prove? Jeff Heidman I just think "load of crap" is strong language when referring to the work of a professional military historian/consultant (and a tester who has played hundreds of PBEMs). If Kiwi speaks that strongly about it, then he must feel that the Germans have a huge advantage here and I would be intrigued to hear if he felt the same way after playing Germans against Fionn. Point of interest. That's all. As for the Hetzer debate, this is what he wrote me about it last month when I asked him the same questions: "Ah well that list isn't the list I came up with. Folks went and changed some of my 'what is and isn't allowed' by mistake. Here are the reasons the Hetzer is allowed: 1. It CAN be killed frontally by a 75mm ( you have to get close but it has only slightly better ricochet potential than a Sherman 75). 2. It can be killed by a top hit from a mortar round. Most of mine die to mortars. 3. It can be killed by a 0.5cal HMG to the side or rear ( I've lost several to MGs). 4. It's ROF and penetration is pretty poor. It's ROF is one of the slowest in the game, it is virtually helpless against anything flanking its position and is especially easy prey to Stuarts or Greyhounds. In essence it is eminently killable by a large portion of the US armoury. Sherman 75s aren't so good at killing it but Sherman 105s and Brit 95mm-armed tanks have a better than even chance of killing it if they hit and fast-moving light tanks and recon vehicles can rip it apart PLUS if it exposes its flank to a 0,5cal HMG team within 300 metres that HMG team can kill it. I think they outlaw the Sexton (25 lber gun) too when the Sexton isn't even an anti-tank vehicle. IOW it is full of errors." And in fact, in the game we were playing at the time, I killed one of his Hetzers with an area target by my Sherman 105...not even a direct hit. [This message has been edited by Binkie (edited 02-28-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Claymore Posted March 1, 2001 Share Posted March 1, 2001 Aye...I would also like throw my considerable bulk into the discussion. Under the Short-75 rules: I also believe the Hertzer to be acceptable under the Short-75 rule. If you or your opponent fixates on the frontal 60/60 armour that the Hertzer carries then the results will be predictable. The tissue-like resistance of the remainder of the Hertzer's body more than compensates. Under the Panther-76 rules: Choose QBs with shorter range LOSs. Do so and the PzV has no advantage. Fionn and I dueled over land with LOSs much greater than this and his PzVs bested my E8(76)s 2:1, but it was great fun. Ya, sort of like the way I'm grinding him up in our current game - sorry Fionn - couldn't resist Gotta go...time for my vanpool...more later. Cheers Murray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeE Posted March 1, 2001 Share Posted March 1, 2001 Originally posted by Robert Hall: You may also be interested to know the results of over 1,400 CM games played over the last 9 months on Rugged Defense: Axis Wins: 650 46% Allied Wins: 607 43% Draws: 159 11% Wow, i have a much smaller sample of course, but of the pbem games i have played a much larger % have ended as draws. Of 30 or so games my guess is I'm more in the range of 30-40% draws if not more. I wonder if this could be inflated because I tend to play with the same group of people generally? Not to change the subject, but what are others personal experiences with this? Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Posted March 1, 2001 Share Posted March 1, 2001 Originally posted by Claymore: Ya, sort of like the way I'm grinding him up in our current game - sorry Fionn - couldn't resist I gotta ask: any idea when you guys will wrap that game up? I think you're up to turn 6 on the AAR ------------------ What a bunch of horsecrap. -Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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