Tiger I colors, a bit OT perhaps...

[Crank_GS]

Hi guys - and some girls, I suppose, too

I have a question about the colors of some Dar Reich Tiger Is prior to Kursk. In his book :Tigers In Combat II", the author has included an artist's rendering of a das Reich Tiger with Red Brown mottling over Panzer Gray base. It has the "Dancing Devil" insignia on it as well as the doppelrune. Does anybody know if this is correct? On page 5, Schneider writes "The new tanks delivered in Spring already had the new yellow-olive base paint. The old tanks were completely repainted in the same way. The camoflage scheme consisted of overpainted red-brown and olive-greem spots." Also, on page 172, there is a good photo of a lineup of Tigers. I know to not trust the accuracy of an "artist's impression" but I would really like to paint my early Tiger this way. What do you guys think?

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Capt. Byron Crank, US Army

[Guest highlife]

Hey Capt.,

I don't think this is much of an answer to your question but I am looking at pg 73 of "Panzer Colors III" entitled "Waffen SS Tiger Markings at Kursk". It has the "Dancing Devil" and the doppelrune and has an ID of 8. sPzKp "Das Reich". There are two DR tigers on the page, both in tricolor yellow base. These are artist's renderings. I have seen illustrations of Tigers in gray with red brown camo listed as "early 1943" so hard to say I guess. I have "Tigers in Combat I" which was just recently reprinted so I am waiting for "II". Great books.

Miller Logan, M.D.

[Guest KwazyDog]

Crank, I've been doing a lot of reading about German camo on the Eastern Dront lately for CM2, and I feel that the scheme you mention is possible.

From what I have read, all new tanks from early '43 onwards came in dark yellow as you mentioned, and tanks that were currently grey were painted yellow when possible, sometimes by order of the unit commander or when they were shipped away for repairs.. When the Germans swapped from Grey to Yellow, they shipped out the Brown and Green in tubes or cans to be applied to the vehicle by the crews. A lot of the time the crews didn't have the time to do this, which is why plain yellow was common in '43.

What I think you are seeing is a picture of a tank that the crew didn't have the ability to paint yellow. Knowing that they were building up for an operation though, I'm guess they were willing to try anything to increase their chances of surviving so they painted on the brown and green that they received over their standard grey. This wouldn't be the first vehicle I have seen painted in this way either Crank, so I think its safe to run with it

Incidentally, near the very end of the war, the Germans were running low on everything. It appear they were even desperate enough to return to the panzer grey, which I've even seen camouflaged with the dark yellow.

Hope that's all of interest Crank

[Guest highlife]

I was looking through another book called "Tiger Is on the East Front" and they had 3 illustrations of Das Reich tiger company tanks, 2 were gray with added paint, one with dark yellow added, the other with dark brown, and one in dark yellow base. The caption on one of the gray ones was in part " training in preparation for Zitadel" or somesuch and the other was with the yellow one and said ".. at Kursk". So I think you would be OK with your scheme.

KwazyDog: I saw your other post about your Jagdtiger. I don't use it a lot because well... its a Jagdtiger, but the paint job is my favorite of all the german vehicles. I'd love to see more done in that style

[Mace]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by KwazyDog:

Incidentally, near the very end of the war, the Germans were running low on everything. It appear they were even desperate enough to return to the panzer grey, which I've even seen camouflaged with the dark yellow.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I believe most tanks were rolled out just sporting the Red Oxide primer, with Panzer Yellow and green sprayed over it if available

Mace

[Guest highlife]

Thank you Mace,

I have posted here and elsewhere about the fact that everything I have been able to find in 25 years of model building and wargaming indicates that the late war "whatever they had" color scheme of the German Army (and SS) was most likely "unpainted" red oxide primer with camo colors when available rather than gray. Although I would be happy to find out otherwise!

[Guest KwazyDog]

Glad you liked the JagdTiger highlife, she is one of my favorites too I based her on a model which in turn is based on the real deal.

I picked up a book a couple of weeks ago called 'Panzers in Colour'. It is excellent, not only showing vehicles today in their resoted colours, but more importantly showing many colour pictures of vehicle *just* after WW2 in their origional paint. There is a picture in there of a late war Hetzer in Panzer Grey with the camo applied over the top.

I think if you are modelling for the Germans late war you can be safe with just about any scheme. They had reasonable of stock of grey from what I've read, and I guess it was better than nothing. I dont want to give the impression it was common though, I think if anything the base yellow was still the norm. I've also read that at times vehicles were painted in all green or brown if no other colours were available, even though those colours themselves were becoming rare

I do think though that vehicles such as panther received more attention, even at this stage. From what Ive read even late in the war they were receiving camouflage over the base yellow, and in '45 this was usually the 'ambush' scheme and by that stage was apparently often factory applied.

Thankfully the Russian will be easier to model for in CM2....they liked green There are some samples of camo on the Russian side, but were apparently very rare.

Dan

[This message has been edited by KwazyDog (edited 01-18-2001).]

[Guest highlife]

Thanks Kwazydog,

I will take your word for it but I'd like to find out how I could get the book you mentioned, just because I am a sucker for WW2 armor books. Regarding the use of dark green or brown as the sole color near the end of the war, I have a couple of books that indicate a general order issued in March of 1945 directing that factories begin applying a base of dark green to new tanks.

As for Crank_GS's question, I think we all agree that his desire to do a panzer gray Tiger with field applied camo is appropriate.

[Jeff Duquette]

I wasnt quite sure from your post, but is this the color plate you were refering too?

[Tiger]

Here's an example of a pattern:

[Guest KwazyDog]

Very cool picture Jeff, thanks for posting

Here is a piece of intersting info I found in 'The Eastern Front - Armour Camouflage and Marking 1941 - 1945' by Steve Zaloga and James Grandsen.

"German Armour retained the panzer grey overall finish until 18 February 1943. When a new camouflage system was introduced by HM 1943 Nr. 181. The new base colour, called dark yellow, was a greyish mustard that had a tendency to fade to a very light greyish sand shade. In addition, units were issued with two more colours, a drab olive green and a red brown which could be applied over the base dark yellow to create a disruptive patterns. These colours were supplied in 2kg or 20kg tins."

And further down he says...

"New armoured vehicles arrived from the factories painted in dark yellow overall, and older vehicles were gradually repainted as they were overhauled"

I would say that picture is somewhere in the middle of this transition, with the tins of paint arriving at the font lines and the crews very eager to do anything with might help their Tiger live another day, especially with the Russian gaining more and more control over the air...

Dan

PS : highlife, Ill have a go later at finding the picture I metnioned and I will scan it up

[This message has been edited by KwazyDog (edited 01-19-2001).]

[Jeff Duquette]

Well my intent was to try and figure out which Color Plate in "Tigers in Combat II" Capt_Crank was referring too. I have several cross references on Tiger Camo patterns for the east front which may assist the guy in figuring out weather a camo scheme he was originally referring to is fanciful or not. However the guy seems to have lost interest in his own thread

[Guest KwazyDog]

Hehe, ahhh well, i found it interesting anyways Jeff. Hopefully Crank will notice it return.

[Guest highlife]

i have enjoyed this thread as well, and just to keep it going a little longer... Eventually i will buy a scanner but the Osprey New Vanguard series #5 "Tiger 1 Heavy Tank 1942-1945" on the B plate page has a Das Reich Tiger identified as "Russia, 1943 in gray with dark yellow overpaint camo. Interestingly, both the "Devil" and doppelrune blow ups are on a gray background in contrast to the illustration Jeff put up.

Part of the text in back reads..."This tiger left the factory with a base coat of Feldgrau, but before July 1943, 'Das Reich' repainted their Panzers with tan or green camouflage paint" I take that to mean camo mottling over the Feldgrau rather than complete base repainting, although at some point I think that was done.

Maybe we should have a thread/board for vehicle paint schemes Not only is CM the best tactical computer wargame ever but it has brought together my interests in model building and wargaming (I never had the patience or skill for painting miniatures for wargaming )

P.S. Nice Tiger, Tiger

[Jeff Duquette]

Another rendition by Peter Sarson (the color plate refered to by highlife). Much lighter shades than the "Tigers in Combat II" plate.

[Jeff Duquette]

Kind of a nice web site on the topic of armor camoflage schemes

http://www.mo-money.com/AFV-news/camouflage.html

[Tiger]

Intresting color plate. The base looks like a very very light green almost going to white with a little bit of yellow tint with washed out orange-rust stripes.

This is the Eastern front? It makes sense, looking like a very weathered paint job maybe after a rough winter.

Tiger

[Guest highlife]

The AFV News site you linked is very nice Jeff. I check it out every so often. The guy that runs it did the first "Panzer Colors" book IIRC. I think the german paint chips illustration is particularly interesting.

Now if we would only hear from Crank_GS again...

[Jeff Duquette]

Same Folks...tiger unit of 2nd SS, and same time period. Rendition from Jean Restayn "Tiger I On the Eastern Front". The grey is certainly much darker than the Sarson Plate.

[109 Gustav]

Kwazy, would it be possible to have multiple mods for one tank in CM2? I was reading one of my first posts,

http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/Forum1/HTML/003987-2.html

and in it, there is some discussion about squads having random weapons, as in a German 1943 rifle squad having a %50 of having an MG 42 LMG and a %50 of having an MG 34.

I got to thinking that maybe Tigers could randomly use "yellow and green" or "grey and brown" textures. This would look a lot better than having to choose between the yellow and green textures that came with the game or installing a grey and brown mod.

Would this be possible, and is it likely to happen?

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Well my skiff's a twenty dollar boat, And I hope to God she stays afloat.

But if somehow my skiff goes down, I'll freeze to death before I drown.

And pray my body will be found, Alaska salmon fishing, boys, Alaska salmon fishing.

-Commercial fishing in Kodiak, Alaska

[Gremlin]

German Tanks of World War II in Color by Michael Green, Thomas Anderson, and Frank Schulz (MBI Publishing Company, 2000) is a really nice little (96p.) book on this topic. Sounds like it may be the American version of the book KwazyDog mentioned. It features an introductory overview of Germany's armor development with lots of gorgeous color photos of restored armor and captured armor just after the war (original color schemes). Features tanks, TD's, SP's, AG's, HT's, AC's, etc.

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When men are inhuman, take care not to feel towards them as they do towards other humans.

--Marcus Aurelius

[Jeff Duquette]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Kwazy, would it be possible to have multiple mods for one tank in CM2? I was reading one of my first posts<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That would be great. Several slots for the same vehicle. The game doesnt have to ship with the slots filled. Just leave um for modders to come back and provide the extra bmps.

[Måkjager]

The hardest thing to do over 50 years since the end of the war is to try and determine what exactly a colour looks like from b&w photos.The quality of the film plus the natural weathering effects of combat and nature make it all the more difficult to make an exact call.

I tried a wee experiment recently with a few pix ( on the back of the Panther Dazzle cammo scheme thread).

In that thread there was a line of thought that the base colour was grey over painted with stripes of whitewash.

I have a colour plate of the same vehicle in which the base is dunkel-gelb.

I added a hard edge 3 tone scheme to a vehicle and the some white over some of the cammo. I then converted it into a b&w pix.

Looking at the converted pix , the area which had been green was now a darker shade of grey...the dark yellow was ( doh ) also a grey shade.

With the effect of weathering it is conceivable that the dark yellow would appear as a "grey" ..the darkness of which would be dependent upon the level of weathering.

It was also true that towards the end of the war there was a directive for the major armour plate manufacture's to paint the plates dark green before shipment to the AFV factories.....which may appear dark grey in b&b photos.

I remember a conversation with Hilary Doyle some years back in which he said that there was a reassement going on weather or not the Geramns fielded Pz s during Operation Barbarossa which sported a 3 tone scheme of Panzer Grey ,Bruin and Grun.

This reassement he as doing was due to closer inspections of early war photos in his possesion , in which the "cammo" is very faint due to the effects of combat and the weather, and the fact that the 3 colours are "dark" when viewed as b&w photos.

Many of us modeller's and modders are dependent upon " artist's impressions" for the final look of a vehicle , and like all things in life it is a matter of opinion and personal taste....that is not to deny that there were standards to be complied with , but we all know that at times standards can slip

Short of going back in time with a digi cam to bring back conclusive proof this discussion in regards to the "correct" shade of paint will rumble on and on ....

ps Tiger ( john ) ...that sure is a nice putty cat ye have there

Keep up the good work...it is appreciated

Regards

Måkjager

" history is made at night....with the aid of a flashlight and some marshmellows"

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Once an Ubërcabbage

Always an Ubërcabbage

[Jeff Duquette]

I’ve never been a model builder…other than the odd aircraft carrier when I was a kid. I do love to look at models\dioramas meticulously done by talented folks. Historical-artists.

I also love the tank MODs folks like Tiger provide us for CM. Gives us all a little more game immersion.

Anyway I thought Makjager’s write-up was kind of interesting. I reckon the following two images are kind-of a look at what Jager is driving at. Tiger 812 “Tiki”. These are both from Jean Restayn, “Tiger I On the Eastern Front”. Both represent camo schemes for Das Reich’s Tiger unit…same time period as the previous three color plates (Spring/Summer 1943).

[Jeff Duquette]

I know all these images are going to slow opening this thread down to a snails pace for anyone that doesn’t have a cable or DSL hook up. I apologize to those folks with the slower conn.

This was mildly interesting to me. I was looking at pg 172 of Wolfgang Schnieder’s “Tigers in Combat II” (Recommended BW from Crank’s original post). I’m no expert on this…just my opinion, but it seems like the darker contrasts between the two camo colors in Jean Restryn’s Color plates are more consistent with the shades between the two color schemes in the black and whites below.

Of additional interest (to me at least)…look at the upper photo. Tiger S34 on the left. This has to be “Tiki” from the BW I just put up in the above post from Jean Restryn’s book. Look at the pattern of the light and dark paint on the camo scheme. It’s “Tiki” with a new turret number.

[This message has been edited by Jeff Duquette (edited 01-20-2001).]