Have MG's changed much since World War Two?

[Olle Petersson]

Originally posted by jasoncawley@ameritech.net:

In most terrain, the view from 4-6 inches height is not exactly stadium-esque. Firing a bipod gun while prone and being shot at, that is about what you'd get. A lot of the firing would be blind because of it, even with a #2 to load or spot.

Been there, done that...

I remember once when we were on a combat firing range, and I manned the MG. I took a firing position on top of a tiny hill (rather a grass clad pile of dirt, less than 5m wide and 1.5m high). This was obviously a lousy position since it was clearly distinguishable and didn't provide much cover nor concealment.

Anyway, the grass was about 1 foot high, 2" higher than the gun barrel position.

Suddenly my spotter/loader shouted something like "-Infantry 200m!".

"-Where?"

"-Over there! Why don't you shoot?"

"-I can't see anything!"

I raised myself, and only after exposing most of myself to the enemy was I able to see the half-figures some way down the range...

Cheers

Olle

[Warmaker]

I don't think they have changed as much since WWII also. Heck, the MG42's legacy still carries on today. The G3 and M60 has already been mentioned. When I was in Marine boot camp receiving training for the M60E3 the instructor did say that it had some basis on a "WWII German Machine Gun." The M60 had alot of problems when introduced but after time and several models the M60 is pretty reliable. Hell, even the beat up, tired, old ones I used in boot camp and MCT never jammed on me. As for the M249 5.56mm SAWS they frequently jammed up on me. Granted, the ones they used for boot camp/MCT are old and beat up.

It does seem that MGs have reached a plateau, alongside assault rifles. Only with alot of time/money/research I think will we see a breakthrough weapon. I heard though that the German G11 caseless seemed revolutionary but the country was strapped for money so it never came into full service. I really would have liked a chance to check on of those out.

Oh, BTW not that many weapons have the satisfying feel of firing the M2 .50 cals!

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"Uncommon valor was a common virtue"-Adm.Chester Nimitz of the Marines on Iwo Jima

[This message has been edited by Warmaker (edited 03-29-2001).]

[mensch]

Actually BTS modeled the MGs very well in CMBO, I mean if a squad of Five can take out a MG nest over a open field in SPR with only one casulty.. much like CMBO when I rush MG nests with a half squad and take it out.. TA!

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[Barleyman]

Originally posted by mensch:

Actually BTS modeled the MGs very well in CMBO, I mean if a squad of Five can take out a MG nest over a open field in SPR with only one casulty..

And there's still no "Realism=[Life/Hollywood]" toggle anywhere!

Hollywood realism would include upgrading grenades to 105mm HE equivalents, give all automatic weapons 1000 bullet clips with no weight penalty and give the heroes cloaks of displacement.

[Wolfcub]

can any 1 give me the site url for operation flash point and the minimum specs ,thnx

[tss]

Jarmo wrote:

The LMG (forgot the model) is very similar to MG42

7.62 KvKK 62.

Barleyman wrote:

Maxims?

Well, modified Maxims. There are also 12.7 mm air-cooled MGs but since I'm not an infantryman I don't have any idea who uses them. At least all vehicle-mounted MGs are 12.7 mm.

As in the WWI era HUGE liquid-cooled MG that's heavy with really slow ROF etc etc?

Finnish Maxims have ROF that is almost twice the ROF of original Maxims.

Also, water-cooled MGs have the nice property that you can shoot as long as you want with no fear for barrel overheating (supposing that you have enough water available).

During the battle of Kelja on 25th-26th December, two Finnish MG bunkers fired almost without breaks for the whole battle, preventing Soviets from reinforcing the troops that had already crossed the Lake Suvanto.

- Tommi

[Jarmo]

On the island fort I served my time, there was a load of Maxims in the weapons room, many on the wheeled sokolov mounts.

As far as I know, finland doesn't have nearly enough modern weaponry to equip the whole army, or enough money to buy more, so lots of WWII stuff is kept ready in stores.

I would probably get a bolt lock rifle or an SMG, as I'm an unimportant low quality type...

[Nabla]

It seems that you can order an LMG42 and test it yourself if you want to - although the availability seems to be "restricted".

http://www.firearms.co.uk/manton/docs/product/mg42.htm

[Gyrene]

I don't think that MG's are any more powerful today (With exception of .50 cal and up guns with the newer API or SLAP ammo) but the big difference is that squads are FAR more powerful now than in WWII, when you compare today's Marine Rifle Squad (As an example) with its 9 M16's, 3 M203 Grenade Launchers (Yes, under 3 of the M16's), 3 M249 SAW's and often 3 or more AT4 rockets (No such thing as bazooka teams anymore), along with more effective grenades and ammo carrying capacity in general (More .223's carried today per man than 30.06's in WWII) You start to get the idea. It might not be an exageration to say that two modern squads have more firepower than a WWII platoon.

[Barleyman]

Originally posted by Jarmo:

As far as I know, finland doesn't have nearly enough modern weaponry to equip the whole army, or enough money to buy more, so lots of WWII stuff is kept ready in stores.

I would probably get a bolt lock rifle or an SMG, as I'm an unimportant low quality type...

Tons of Pact hardware was bought for scrap iron prices from former DDR stocks in early 90s. I wouldn't be surprised in the least if this didn't include a large number of 7.62mm and 12.7mm MGs .. It did include 35mm (?) grenade rifles + other neat toys.

They also bought el cheapo Chinese AK-74 (?) clones so everyone gets a 7.62mm assault rifle when the time is ripe to take back what belongs to us.

I'm referring to Goteborg, of course.

Those chinese rifles had some problems with Finnish ammo, apparently the hammer wasn't quite strong enough so you got piles of misfires. Apparently they modified the entire 200k shipment of rifles..

[This message has been edited by Barleyman (edited 03-29-2001).]

[Guest Mikey D]

One difference between mgs today and mgs in WWII is nowadays all the Western mgs seem to have been designed in Belgium! From the U.S. infantry's 5.56 SMG to the commander's mg on the Challenger II. Belgian!

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Gyrene:

It might not be an exageration to say that two modern squads have more firepower than a WWII platoon.

It's the same in Canada, and you're bang on with your comments. Add in the armament of a Canadian squad's APC/IFV (well...the one's they're SUPPOSED to have, anyway) and you have a lot of firepower.

The Canadian Rangers, to address another point, still use WW II issue bolt action Lee Enfield rifles IIRC (they are part time soldiers who live in the northern hinterlands of Canada). We still use the .50 up here, also. The Vickers soldiered on until the 1960s, and the Bren until the 1960s as well. It's replacement, the FNC2, didn't seem to be as good - the mag fed from the bottom which seemed awkward, but it shared ammo with the FNC1 assault rifles we got in the late 1950s/early 1960s so seemed to make sense.

[Jarmo]

Originally posted by Barleyman:

Tons of Pact hardware was bought for scrap iron prices from former DDR stocks in early 90s.

Looks like the situation has improved quite a bit since my term. My info is almost 10 years old already. (Where the hell did all that time go!)

[Guest wwb_99]

Well, there was an intersting article in the economist about the current 'brush fires' in africa. Apparently these conflicts have been made much more deadly by the common cheap availiability of assault rifles (FN-FALs, M-16s, Galils & AK-47s). Instead of a rebel raid on a village killing a handful when armed with bolt action rifles, they can slaughter everyone with the automatics.

Also, AK-74s are modernized AK-47s rechambered to fit 5.45mm ammo.

WWB

[Editied as per Senior Beet's Nit below]

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[This message has been edited by wwb_99 (edited 03-29-2001).]

[SenorBeef]

Originally posted by wwb_99:

Well, there was an intersting article in the economist about the current 'brush fires' in africa. Apparently these conflicts have been made much more deadly by the common cheap availiability of assault rifles (FN-FALs, M-16s, Galils & AK-47s). Instead of a rebel raid on a village killing a handful when armed with bolt action rifles, they can slaughter everyone with the automatics.

Also, AK-74s are modernized AK-47s rechambered to fit 5.65mm ammo.

WWB

Minor nit: 5.45

[Skipper]

> I raised myself, and only after exposing

> most of myself to the enemy was I able to

> see the half-figures some way down the

> range...

Earlier in the same post:

> This was obviously a lousy position

Yup. So it sounds.

> Hell, even the beat up, tired, old ones I

> used in boot camp and MCT never jammed on

> me.

Did you get to fire long bursts to the point where you see the barrel glowing?

> Add in the armament of a Canadian squad's

> APC/IFV

Ie, another trusty .50cal on M-113?

[Guest Rommel22]

Wolfclub:

Here is the link

www.flashpoint1985.com

Great game, demo available too!

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http://rommel22diarys.homestead.com/MyPage1.html

"I saw 5 Germans walking down the side of the road, so I followed them for a few yard to get closer. Then I shot them! Later that day I found out the war has been over for a few weeks." - someone

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Skipper:

Ie, another trusty .50cal on M-113?

I was thinking more of the Grizzly and the new LAV IIIs, but the M113 and its trusty .50 is also a good example.

[tss]

Jarmo wrote:

I would probably get a bolt lock rifle or an SMG, as I'm an unimportant low quality type...

Hell no, we weathermen are the backbone of the army.

- Tommi

[Skipper]

Which reminds me. When I used to go outdoors (whitewater, mountains - that sort of outdoors), we would always appoint somebody responsible for the weather. When (NB: not if) the weather gets ugly, it is always reassuring that there is somebody to be blamed for that.