When a tank runs into something, it shouldn't

[Fuerte]

It has happened to me already twice in the game we are PBEM. My scout vehicle has run into an enemy tank in a road. What happens is:

1) Vehicle stops (no damage)

2) It thinks for a second or two

3) It backs up for a while

4) It tries to find a way around that enemy vehicle

What SHOULD happen:

1) Do not stop, but drive around the vehicle

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http://www.sci.fi/~fuerte/pbem.htm

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Fuerte:

What SHOULD happen:

1) Do not stop, but drive around the vehicle

Why?

[Fuerte2]

Why would I want my scout vehicle to collide with an enemy tank? It gets blasted in the "retreating"/"find a way around" phase. If the vehicle would just avoid collision, it would survive.

[Canuck]

Makes sense to me

especially if these guys are making decisions on their own during the 60 seconds

I'd like to see better collsion detection in CM2. I dont like seening one of my tanks go half way into another one of my tanks as it tries to pass it. Kind of ruins the 'suspension of disbelief' thing thats goin on

[Olle Petersson]

Originally posted by Fuerte:

What SHOULD happen:

1) Do not stop, but drive around the vehicle

No, if it's recon it should try to get out of sight ASAP as it spots the enemy. That's what.

Usually this means hitting reverse and back off, but it could also mean making a sharp turn to run behind a house or a patch of trees.

Passing the enemy is usually not the best option.

(Of course the first combat between British and German troops in NA was between recon cars that met on a narrow road, but that's not standard procedure...)

Cheers

Olle

[gaffertape]

This really shouldn't happen at all - but I refer to the situation, not the AI reaction.

If you're racing scout units right into an area where there is likely to be an enemy tank then you shouldn't expect the AI to react 'realistically' to an unrealistic situation.

I certainly haven't read any accounts of a Greyhound or a Humber accidentally whacking into a manned German tank in combat. Scout units are capable of spotting enemy units from decent range - rushing them headlong into a built up or heavily forested area is only going to get them killed.

GAFF

[This message has been edited by gaffertape (edited 03-01-2001).]

[Fuerte]

A fast scout vehicle can almost drive from the edge of the map to the other in 60 seconds. It would make some sense if it would not collide to every enemy tank which happens to be on the road at the same time! Realistic strategy or not, if the scout vehicle could just avoid the collision, then it would not be destroyed so easily and it would be able to scout something.

Collisions also happen with friendly vehicles, and they look very unrealistic. But since there is no command to move different vehicles at the same speed, these collisions keep the vehicles in the original order. But it is ugly.

[Dirtweasle]

Questions:

Was it a Jeep or an AC of some sort? Maybe a Tank?

Was the vehicle buttoned up?

What was the weather conditions?

Was it Dawn/Dusk?

In a game against the computer I've run an AC down a dirt road and had my hound blast hell out of things. (I wouldn't try this against a human as they're likely to have a little surprise for you though.) I've also had a jeep get knocked aside by a Puma, and b/4 the Puma could bring it's gun around the peep drove off.

Collision detection I suppose could be better, but that is assuming that the vehicles speeding down the road actually see each other in time. Really more to the point; Have you ever driven 50 MPH+ down a dirt road in a Jeep, let alone an AC? Now say another Jeep or something is coming the other way, what's the closing speed? Could be 100 MPH. I can tell you from experience regularly driving down dirt forest service roads here in Colorado - you get guys that do this sorta' thing and every weekend you see there smashed up jeeps limping back to Denver with surprising regularity. So before we cry wolf, that vehicle are acting stupid, remember that in Real Life folks drive like idiots. Particularly flatlanders on Sunday drives in the mountains...

BTW - I've witnessed this four point outline in real-life, ...ofcourse the enemy was just some idiot tourist

1) Vehicle stops (no damage)

2) It thinks for a second or two

3) It backs up for a while

4) It tries to find a way around that enemy vehicle

This does'nt realy seem too stupid to me. You don't even know from this description if the vehicle is armed or not, did it just fire at something else if it was? Realy there are more questions here than answers.

[Dirtweasle]

Originally posted by Fuerte:

...But since there is no command to move different vehicles at the same speed, these collisions keep the vehicles in the original order. But it is ugly.

The MOVE command moves them all at the same speed IIRC.

[CavScout]

Originally posted by Dirtweasle:

Collision detection I suppose could be better, but that is assuming that the vehicles speeding down the road actually see each other in time. Really more to the point; Have you ever driven 50 MPH+ down a dirt road in a Jeep, let alone an AC? Now say another Jeep or something is coming the other way, what's the closing speed? Could be 100 MPH. I can tell you from experience regularly driving down dirt forest service roads here in Colorado - you get guys that do this sorta' thing and every weekend you see there smashed up jeeps limping back to Denver with surprising regularity. So before we cry wolf, that vehicle are acting stupid, remember that in Real Life folks drive like idiots. Particularly flatlanders on Sunday drives in the mountains...

What military vehicles are doing 50+ MPH on dirt roads? In WWII or today? Throw in likely enemy contact and it is even fewer.

[Dirtweasle]

Originally posted by CavScout:

What military vehicles are doing 50+ MPH on dirt roads? In WWII or today? Throw in likely enemy contact and it is even fewer.

Well in the game Jeeps and Kubelwagons go 50+, German ACs are rated at 50, the American M3A1 Scout car is rated at 55, along with the M8, and M20, the Hellcat is rated at 55.

Did'nt say it was smart if you are tryng to scout around, or contact is likely. By the description given one does'nt know what speeds the example was attempting to depict, in what circumstance.

[Guest Rommel22]

I just hope in CM2 there will be damage modeled when vehicles collide!!! I mean 2 tanks colliding would cause damamge to each other. Some dammage should be modelled, PLEASE!!!!

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Rommel22's War Diarys site.

http://rommel22diarys.homestead.com/MyPage1.html

"I saw 5 Germans walking down the side of the road, so I followed them for a few yard to get closer. Then I shot them! Later that day I found out the war has been over for a few weeks." - someone

[Fuerte]

Originally posted by Dirtweasle:

Was it a Jeep or an AC of some sort? Maybe a Tank?

Was the vehicle buttoned up?

What was the weather conditions?

Was it Dawn/Dusk?

First one was a Jeep, the second one was an AC, a fast one.

AC was buttoned up.

Fog.

I can't check at the moment.

The Jeep probably didn't notice the enemy AC before it hit it. My AC probably noticed the other enemy AC at least 5 seconds before it hit it. Plenty of time to avoid collision. If it can stay on the road, it should also be able to drive around the enemy AC which was not moving.

[Dirtweasle]

Originally posted by Fuerte:

First one was a Jeep, the second one was an AC, a fast one.

AC was buttoned up.

Fog.

I can't check at the moment.

The Jeep probably didn't notice the enemy AC before it hit it. My AC probably noticed the other enemy AC at least 5 seconds before it hit it. Plenty of time to avoid collision. If it can stay on the road, it should also be able to drive around the enemy AC which was not moving.

So a an AC roared up a road, and bumped into a jeep. The AC was buttoned up, and it was foggy. To me it sounds entirely plausuble that the AC did'nt have time to see the peep let alone ID at as hostile. The jeep, unless also moving flat-out might not have noticed the AC in time, though this seems less likely.

Other questions would have to be adressed as far as suppresion, shocked or something, missing a crew and so forth.

I agree that when units collide there is an element of danger that something might break. Maybe the MG on the jeep ought to break off the mount, maybe the engine ought to stall, or come off the motor mounts. Maybe a part on the jeep flys off, penetrates the drivers view port, and the drive now cannot see if buttoned... perhaps a crew member is now a casuality...any number of things could/should occur just like in a real collison.

BTW - if my previous post offended anyone of the flatlander persuasion, well sorry.

[109 Gustav]

Originally posted by Dirtweasle:

BTW - I've witnessed this four point outline in real-life, ...ofcourse the enemy was just some idiot tourist

I've got the same problem. I live on a dirt road, so tourists assume that nobody else will be driving except them. Therefore, it's ok to stop in the middle of a blind curve and chat with the driver of another car in the other lane. Of course, when I come along, there's no way around the two-vehicle roadblock. And it's icy. And it's my boss's truck that I'm driving.

I wish vehicles would get immobilized or bogged in roadblocks if they run into them at high speed when they didn't have enought warning time. Highly realistic.

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Well my skiff's a twenty dollar boat, And I hope to God she stays afloat.

But if somehow my skiff goes down, I'll freeze to death before I drown.

And pray my body will be found, Alaska salmon fishing, boys, Alaska salmon fishing.

The Last Defense- Mods, Scenarios, and more!

[Dirtweasle]

True story.

There's an old man that lives down this one lane dirt road that goes back to a little park. (BTW- A Park for the uninitiated is a bowl like valley surrounde by mountains devoid of trees, good grazing land.) He's lived there all his life, probably he's 75-80 years old now. He has always turned into the lane at I figure about 30 MPH. Either in a cloud of dust, a splash of mud, whatever, he just tears it up when he gets to his lane. Nice guy, knows everybody in the county. A tourist happened to go down there to look around, or eat a picnic, who knows. Well the tourist is coming back up the lane, and here comes old man Johnson. Of course he doesn't look around, hell he's the only one that lives down there, so boom he makes the turn, and barrels through the corner like. Tourist fella, well he ends up in the ditch, looses a side mirror, and ends up calling the County Sheriff. Deputy comes by, and so I'm told, the deputy tells the tourist, "You're not from around here are ya?" " ...hell Old Man Johnson has lived back here for 75 years, and driven like that for the last 50, I can't give him a ticket!"

Another one is, There's this tourist at the gas station looking at one of them brochures they got in this rack down there, and comments to the clerk; "It says here there's more cattle in this county than people." Clerk shoots back to him, "Well, I reckon we prefer it that way."

Rural Humor, gotta love it.

[lcm1947]

If I was in a jeep that happened on a tank I believe I wouldn;t stop and back up into it;s line of fire, I would haul ass past it. But's that's just me.

[Fuerte2]

Originally posted by Dirtweasle:

So a an AC roared up a road, and bumped into a jeep.

No. I had TWO incidents, one with a jeep, and another with an AC. Both with enemy ACs. The second collision with AC+AC was avoidable, because my AC saw the other at least five seconds before it collided. It even managed to identify the enemy AC, which was not moving.

[RossGr]

Seems to me that everyone is missing a key issue here. Scale! When the images on the screen seem to collide it merely means that the 2 objects are so close together on the map that their images overlap. not that they have "hit" each other in the game scale. Remember that the images are large for playability.

Guess your philosiphy of scouting that when the scout dissapears that means the bad guys must be it that area.

I would rather get a report on the number and type of enemy vehchials myself. Scouts have no business zooming down roads weaving in and out amounst an enemy armor column.

My $.02

[Fuerte2]

Originally posted by RossGr:

When the images on the screen seem to collide it merely means that the 2 objects are so close together on the map that their images overlap. not that they have "hit" each other in the game scale. Remember that the images are large for playability.

They surely collide, because the vehicle speed decreases to zero in one millisecond. And when the images are not enlarged with Shift+C, then they are real size. It does not matter much to me if the images overlap or not.

[Dr. Brian]

Why are we concentrating on collisions with enemy tanks?

It's the running into my OWN vehicles… the stopping, backing up, etc.

Doesn't this BOTHER anyone?????

I hate it when I have a bunch of different vehicles proceeding down a road or through a narrow pass, between buildings, over a bridge, and, due to their different speeds, starting playing bumper cars.

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Doc

God Bless Chesty Puller, Wherever He Is!

[Dirtweasle]

Originally posted by Fuerte2:

No. I had TWO incidents, one with a jeep, and another with an AC. Both with enemy ACs. The second collision with AC+AC was avoidable, because my AC saw the other at least five seconds before it collided. It even managed to identify the enemy AC, which was not moving.

Well you've got two names, why not.

[Fuerte]

Originally posted by Dr. Brian:

It's the running into my OWN vehicles… the stopping, backing up, etc.

Doesn't this BOTHER anyone?????

It bothers, but it is not as fatal (usually) as running into enemy vehicles. Basically it is the same thing. The AI should handle vehicle movement and collision avoiding better.