Heidar Posted October 12, 2001 Share Posted October 12, 2001 Should the infantry not have the option do dig in. As all good sergeants now that idel hands are the devils tool, keep the men busy and all that.. I know there is a time factor in CMBO but I realy miss the feeling of not having trenches in the game or the ability to make them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cubbies Phan Posted October 12, 2001 Share Posted October 12, 2001 And how long does it take to dig a foxhole now? An hour or so at best. What's the average time limit on most CM scenarios? About 30 minutes. Digging a foxhole in the middle of combat is probably not a good idea anyway. This is something you do prior to the battle. And only if you're defending. This option is available, but only via the scenario-creator's disgression for the defender only. The foxholes will appear for any infantry unit that is out in regular ground. In otherwords, not on any road or in any building. [ 10-12-2001: Message edited by: Cubbies Phan ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeWary Posted October 12, 2001 Share Posted October 12, 2001 Well, from my understanding, soldiers did try to dig in as much as possible, even in the middle of combat. Some cover's better than no cover! Perhaps CMBB could include this as an optional command, but the "foxhole" dug would provide much less cover than a normal foxhole, seeing as it won't be as complete. Good idea. BeWary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mud Posted October 12, 2001 Share Posted October 12, 2001 It might be nice, at least for a scenario designer, to be able to place fortifications for the attacker as well to simulate a battle at a static front line -- a siege, say. Another bit that would help so that the battlefield doesn't look quite as pristine would be pre-placed craters, already-damaged buildings (we can place burning ones, but I don't recall being able to place merely damaged ones), et al. Maybe in the engine rewrite. *shrug* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gyrene Posted October 12, 2001 Share Posted October 12, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> And how long does it take to dig a foxhole now? An hour or so at best. What's the average time limit on most CM scenarios? About 30 minutes. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Depends on the terrain...On "regular" garden variety dirt a motivated trooper (I.e. getting shot at) should be able to dig a 3.5-4 ft deep fox hole (Fighting hole, if the digger is a Marine, foxes hide in their holes ) in about 15 minutes. They could do it even quicker if engineers blast loose the ground first. An improvised fighting hole does not need to be the luxurious, 7 foot deep trenches we see in the movies, with grenade pits and firing ledges, just deep enough to get your head and nuts away from the incoming. Ground hardness should be a feature of CMBB and so should be field expidient fighting holes. Gyrene Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
killmore Posted October 12, 2001 Share Posted October 12, 2001 One of my friends was in Polish army in early 1980s. Company commander stopped them and said: "You can hear the tanks in the distance - they WILL drive right over you. You have couple of minuts to dig in or you will be crushed." They did managed to dig just enough to hide entire body. One of them managed to dig about 2 meter deep hole... Tanks drove right over them. They were driving in a line with only 50 cm between them... This was during the exercise - not during war... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted October 12, 2001 Share Posted October 12, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gyrene: ...just deep enough to get your head and nuts away from the incoming.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I think if I were getting shot at in any kind of modern war, my nuts would be digging their own hole, thankyouverymuch! :eek: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Ground hardness should be a feature of CMBB and so should be field expidient fighting holes.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I agree. I also like the idea put forward by Mud to have fortifications for the offense as well. This is entirely realistic to represent jumping off from a start line that has been occupied for 24 hours or more. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scipio Posted October 12, 2001 Share Posted October 12, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Cubbies Phan: And how long does it take to dig a foxhole now? An hour or so at best. What's the average time limit on most CM scenarios? About 30 minutes.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> If you have a mad drillsergeant in your neck, you dig fast. VERY fast. I can speak of own experience... <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Digging a foxhole in the middle of combat is probably not a good idea anyway. This is something you do prior to the battle. And only if you're defending. This option is available, but only via the scenario-creator's disgression for the defender only. The foxholes will appear for any infantry unit that is out in regular ground. In otherwords, not on any road or in any building.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I don't agree. Dig in makes always sense when your movement is stopped and you don't see a chance to get out at the moment. And 'dig-in-under-fire' is a known tactic, for example reported by Erwin Rommel in his book 'Infantry attacks'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triumvir Posted October 13, 2001 Share Posted October 13, 2001 There's a story I saw on s.m.m.[1] a long time ago about a Croatian who joined the Canadian army after having fought in the Balkans. All went reasonably well until in one exercise the evaluators called an arty strike on the position. While all the other members of his unit followed the drill and made tracks out in a particular direction, this fellow immediately pulled out his spade and started furiously digging a foxhole. When the evaluators started screaming at him, he turned to them and said something to the effect "when the shells start falling, you'll know what works and what doesn't." I've seen pictures of German infantry entrenching under arty bombardment, and as an ex-gunner, I'd think that entrenching is the right thing to do. Certainly an FO can call an adjustment far faster than you can run. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lcm1947 Posted October 13, 2001 Share Posted October 13, 2001 I'm not so sure about digging a foxhole big enough to accomodate a man in 30 minutes is really realistic but it would improve the game enjoyment some. Our squad tried it in basic one time and the sergeant finally said to hell with it and we wrote it off. Now true the ground was very rocky and we could have moved to another location and tried but it's a lot harder using that little entrenching tool even with the pick feature then what you think. So if they did allow it I would think it would have to be something you bought and situated in the setup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow 1st Hussars Posted October 13, 2001 Share Posted October 13, 2001 Gotta love the foxhole in a pocket debates.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triumvir Posted October 13, 2001 Share Posted October 13, 2001 Also please remember the difference between a foxhole and a shellscrape; I can dig a shellscrape easily in 30 minutes with nice shaping and a foot ledge so that every part of my body is under the ground. But if necessary, I'm pretty sure that you can entrench in five minutes. Course, you'll then be fscking exhausted, but that should show up in the game. Maybe there should be an entrench command that takes up time and reduces exhaustion? So after, say, 5 minutes, a regular squad is entrenched; 3 for an elite, 10 for a conscript? With the fitness ratings in CMBB, that should happily affect the speed of entrenchment too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted October 13, 2001 Share Posted October 13, 2001 In thinking about this, it occurs to me that we should be careful what we ask for, just in case BTS might decide to give it to us. Consider for a moment: Who is this rapid digging in most likely to benefit? That's right, the offense. Very good, class! Now, tell teacher who it is that gets complained about being too strong already... That's right! The offense again! Which is not to say that the ideas expressed in this thread should not be implemented; personally, I hope they will. But we need to keep in mind as always how this will effect the game as a whole and have some means in hand to keep things balanced. I'm hoping that fire lanes for defensive MGs will help here, but it may prove that more is needed. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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