Gregory Deych Posted February 23, 2001 Share Posted February 23, 2001 I gathered it's an "Air landing" division, but are they properly Fallschrimjaegers or are they some sort of Luftwaffe field division? Or were they a Heer division entirely? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skipper Posted February 23, 2001 Share Posted February 23, 2001 Not 100% sure if it's what you are talking about, but Luftwaffe did form several light infantry divisions from excess airfield personnel some time in 1942 or 43, iirc. They were used as normal infantry divisions, although techically remained luftwaffe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Los Posted February 23, 2001 Share Posted February 23, 2001 The first german airborne divsion was called the 7.Fligerdivision, sometime around 1939 eth Army formed the 22.Luftlande (Airlanding) division came into being an air landing division. This sort of represented conflicting theories between the Luftwaffe (oil drop parachute assaults) and the Heer (airlanded intact force schwerpunkt) on how to conduct vertical envelopment. Both divisions were employed in Holland. But the Army refused to release the 22d for Crete and instead sent the 5th GJD in it's stead as the airlanding force. It was not till after Crete that the airborne forces were reorganized and the term Fallschirmjaeger was applied to a divisionsal orgnization (1.FJD), though all along airborne regiments were known as fallschirmjaeger regiments. Suitably confusing? Even today (or until recently at least) the airborne brigade (s) are known as a luftlande brigade. Los Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt Eagle Posted February 23, 2001 Share Posted February 23, 2001 I don't know whether its a Luftlande div but there are some Luftwaffe troops that are "land locked": the guys who guard internment camps that hold Pilot and Air Force prisoners, like in "Hogan's Heroes" and in "The Great Escape". ------------------ "Nuts!" -Brigadier General Anthony McAuliffe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregory Deych Posted February 23, 2001 Author Share Posted February 23, 2001 Nope, this is a combat formation. Originally posted by Sgt Eagle: I don't know whether its a Luftlande div but there are some Luftwaffe troops that are "land locked": the guys who guard internment camps that hold Pilot and Air Force prisoners, like in "Hogan's Heroes" and in "The Great Escape". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berlichtingen Posted February 24, 2001 Share Posted February 24, 2001 Basically, the Luftlanding Divisions (22nd Infantry and 5th mountain) were stripped of most of their heavy equipment and flown into an area in transport aircraft. they wee not intended to conduct assaults in this way. The fallschirmjäger were to capture the airfields that the Luftlanding troops would fly into. This sort of represented conflicting theories between the Luftwaffe (oil drop parachute assaults) and the Heer (airlanded intact force schwerpunkt) on how to conduct vertical envelopment. This statement is actually backwards. The Herr advocated the small commando style drops, and it was Student that advocated the massed Schwerepunkt drops. Student finally won out (Crete), but due to bad intel and some really bad coordination it didn't work out very well... but it proved that it could be done to the Allies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregory Deych Posted February 24, 2001 Author Share Posted February 24, 2001 Originally posted by Berlichtingen: Basically, the Luftlanding Divisions (22nd Infantry and 5th mountain) were stripped of most of their heavy equipment and flown into an area in transport aircraft. they wee not intended to conduct assaults in this way. The fallschirmjäger were to capture the airfields that the Luftlanding troops would fly into. So did they have a Fallschrimjaeger TO&E or regular (jaeger?) TO&E? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Michael emrys Posted February 24, 2001 Share Posted February 24, 2001 Originally posted by Gregory Deych: So did they have a Fallschrimjaeger TO&E or regular (jaeger?) TO&E? The 22nd. did not belong to the Luftwaffe and did not have a Fallshirmjäger TO&E. It was an infantry division deprived of its heavy weapons. I think it kept all its mortars and 75mm LeIG and was equipped with 20mm FLAK. I think the 5th. Gebirgs. (which was only used as an air landing division in Crete, unless I am mistaken) pretty much retained its original TO&E except for its heavier artillery as all its kit broke down into easily transportable packs anyway. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berlichtingen Posted February 24, 2001 Share Posted February 24, 2001 Yeah, what Michael said The 5th Gebirgsjäger was the Luftlanding Division used on Crete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berlichtingen Posted February 24, 2001 Share Posted February 24, 2001 Oh, one other thing... the British also had an Air Landing Division (53rd I think... well, 50 something) that was slated for use in Market Garden. After it didn't get used it returned to being a straight Infantry Division Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Los Posted February 24, 2001 Share Posted February 24, 2001 From Fallschirmjaeger by Uwe Feist and Thomas McGuirl (Reyton Publishing p.12): "The basic differences between the two concepts (Luftwaffe and Heer) reflect the different branches of the Armed Forces from which they arose. The Army advocated the concept of building a Schwehrpunkt by means of a mass drop to large for the enemy to take quick effective countermeasures against. As is stated in point 1 they were to provide a means to advance the man line of advance in the battle of annihlation which tied all support forces to the advance of the infantry main body. The Luftwaffe's more novel porposal wa stp drop small bodies of men, "drops of oil" simultaneously onto seperate targets, combine to form perimeters and threaten the enemy over a wide area in his rear. Such perimeters as offered the best potential for exploitation could then be joined to c reate a schwehrpunkt. Gen. Student, as a trained General staff officer, inclined to the Army doctrine while not neglecting the possibilities of presented by gliders, to realize the methods porposed by the Luftwaffe. As a result, the Fallschirmjaeger and the Luftlandetruppen were able to mount both types of operations." Hope that helps. Los Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IPA Posted February 24, 2001 Share Posted February 24, 2001 Originally posted by Berlichtingen: Oh, one other thing... the British also had an Air Landing Division (53rd I think... well, 50 something) that was slated for use in Market Garden. After it didn't get used it returned to being a straight Infantry Division It was the 52nd (Lowland) Division, which had been converted to an "airportable" role. The plan was that after Arnhem had been secured, the division was to be flown in to Deelen Airfield to the North of Arnhem ie landed via normal transport aircraft. IPA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sirocco Posted February 24, 2001 Share Posted February 24, 2001 Originally posted by IPA: The plan was that after Arnhem had been secured, the division was to be flown in to Deelen Airfield to the North of Arnhem ie landed via normal transport aircraft. The plan was for 878th Aviation Engineer Battalion to construct landing strips north of Arnhem for use by 52nd (Lowland) Division. ------------------ "He belongs to a race which has coloured the map red, and all he wants are the green fields of England..." - Joe Illingworth, Yorkshire Post War Correspondent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IPA Posted February 24, 2001 Share Posted February 24, 2001 Originally posted by Sirocco: The plan was for 878th Aviation Engineer Battalion to construct landing strips north of Arnhem for use by 52nd (Lowland) Division. No, the 52nd were to be flown in along with the 878th as soon as Deelen Airfield was captured. The 878th were to construct further landing grounds and a forward fighter strip, but not for the 52nd (that would have taken weeks)("Arnhem 1944 The Airborne Battle" Martin Middlebrook). IPA [This message has been edited by IPA (edited 02-24-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sirocco Posted February 25, 2001 Share Posted February 25, 2001 Originally posted by IPA: No, the 52nd were to be flown in along with the 878th as soon as Deelen Airfield was captured. Well, my source contradicts that, but I can see problems with both plans. I doubt the Germans would leave Deelen in a useable state, for example. ------------------ "He belongs to a race which has coloured the map red, and all he wants are the green fields of England..." - Joe Illingworth, Yorkshire Post War Correspondent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Michael emrys Posted February 25, 2001 Share Posted February 25, 2001 ...unless my memory has completely failed me. Michael Oops! It did... Michael [This message has been edited by Michael emrys (edited 02-24-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IPA Posted February 25, 2001 Share Posted February 25, 2001 Originally posted by Sirocco: Well, my source contradicts that, but I can see problems with both plans. I doubt the Germans would leave Deelen in a useable state, for example. You're right Sirocco, again perhaps too much optimism as with rest of the Plan. I also think that they would have been lucky if the allied bombing on Deelen Airfield just prior to the landings on the 17th hadn't already put it out of action. Whatever the plan was, I guess it doesn't matter now as it would come to nothing. BTW is your user name in reference to that classic Volkwagen of the late 80s? I always wanted one when I was a student, but alas was too poor. Thanks. IPA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sirocco Posted February 25, 2001 Share Posted February 25, 2001 Originally posted by IPA: I also think that they would have been lucky if the allied bombing on Deelen Airfield just prior to the landings on the 17th hadn't already put it out of action. Whatever the plan was, I guess it doesn't matter now as it would come to nothing. With the AA guns having been removed from Deelen after the RAF raid on 3 September - making the airfield temporarily unuseable - gliders could have landed north of Arnhem, near the bridge. That would have increased the likelihood of success of the operation, and could also have opened the way for Deelen to be captured relatively intact, perhaps. But that's hindsight. BTW is your user name in reference to that classic Volkwagen of the late 80s? I always wanted one when I was a student, but alas was too poor. The name "Sirocco" was inspired by the fan used by Churchill tanks, which in turn came from a wind that blows across North Africa and into Europe. ------------------ "He belongs to a race which has coloured the map red, and all he wants are the green fields of England..." - Joe Illingworth, Yorkshire Post War Correspondent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IPA Posted February 25, 2001 Share Posted February 25, 2001 Originally posted by Sirocco: The name "Sirocco" was inspired by the fan used by Churchill tanks, which in turn came from a wind that blows across North Africa and into Europe. How embarrassing, I am indeed a philistine. Can't believe I made the VW comment. IPA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forever Babra Posted February 25, 2001 Share Posted February 25, 2001 In other words, "Sirocco", the hot desert wind, is just another name for a lot of hot air. Sorry, I just HAD to do it.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sirocco Posted February 25, 2001 Share Posted February 25, 2001 Originally posted by Forever Babra: In other words, "Sirocco", the hot desert wind, is just another name for a lot of hot air. B] With a name like Babra I should keep quiet. ------------------ "He belongs to a race which has coloured the map red, and all he wants are the green fields of England..." - Joe Illingworth, Yorkshire Post War Correspondent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Michael emrys Posted February 25, 2001 Share Posted February 25, 2001 Originally posted by Sirocco: gliders could have landed north of Arnhem, near the bridge. That would have increased the likelihood of success of the operation, and could also have opened the way for Deelen to be captured relatively intact, perhaps. But that's hindsight. My own "favorite plan" would have been to land the entire division south of the bridge. This would have had several advantages. 1. It would have been vastly easier to defend against the 9th. & 10th. SS Pz. Divisions as well as all the other forces in and around Arnhem. That would have meant they could safely bring in supplies and reinforcements. 2. They would have prevented the reinforcement of Nijmegen from Arnhem. That would have greatly facilitated the capture of that city and its bridges and speeded the relief of the 1st. Airborne. 3. They would have been able to keep the bridgehead at the north end of the bridge supplied and run fresh troops into it over the bridge. It would have also been a good idea to land the 82nd. to the west and northwest of Grosbeek Heights. Again, that would have placed the defendable terrain of the Heights between their LZs and the Germans. As it was, the Germans brought the LZs under fire early, which made reinforcement and resupply difficult. It also took longer to get a force into Nijmegen, time that the Germans put to use organizing the defense of that city. You are right, Sirocco, about hindsight. The thing that is so tantalizing about Market-Garden for me is that in spite of all the things that made the whole operation such an improbable long shot, it just might have worked if the Allies had just done a dozen or so things differently. But I guess every losing general says that... Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve McClaire Posted February 25, 2001 Share Posted February 25, 2001 On the original question: I do know of one good source for one Luftlande division, the 91st, which fought at Normandy. Check out the 91st division under the German OOB section at: http://home.swipnet.se/normandy/index.html Apparently it was a two regiment division with mountain-style artillery. It definitely does not appear to have been organized like, or considered equal to, an FJ division. However, it seems the division was just in the process of forming and training during the spring of 1944, so I'm not sure how representative its organization was on June 6th. [This message has been edited by Steve McClaire (edited 02-25-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sirocco Posted February 26, 2001 Share Posted February 26, 2001 Originally posted by Michael emrys: The thing that is so tantalizing about Market-Garden for me is that in spite of all the things that made the whole operation such an improbable long shot, it just might have worked if the Allies had just done a dozen or so things differently. "We had approached the state of mind when we weren't thinking as hard about the risks as we possibly had done earlier." - General Roy Urquhart Combined with the tight schedule, that was fatal. ------------------ "He belongs to a race which has coloured the map red, and all he wants are the green fields of England..." - Joe Illingworth, Yorkshire Post War Correspondent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sirocco Posted February 26, 2001 Share Posted February 26, 2001 I'm wondering why 22nd Air-Landing Division went to Ploesti while 5th Mountain Division went to Crete. Was it more suited to the terrain, more elite, or..? ------------------ "He belongs to a race which has coloured the map red, and all he wants are the green fields of England..." - Joe Illingworth, Yorkshire Post War Correspondent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts