David Aitken Posted December 31, 2000 Share Posted December 31, 2000 Lock up your Heidmans! David is about to suggest some ways in which CM could be improved! Some here have lamented the weaknesses of CM in modelling convincing urban landscapes. I have made a couple of attempts to approximate a realistic European town with the CM map editor, and the resulting scenarios are available from my CM webpage. However, there are fundamental ways in which CM maps are much more suited to rural landscapes than cityscapes. I can't see these issues being easily remedied, so I'm not sure if we'll see any fundamental improvements until CM II (the projected rewrite of the engine). But considering that CM 2 will be set on the Eastern Front, and many here are looking forward to the urban scenarios such as Stalingrad, maybe some of these issues could be addressed in some way. First of all, I hail from Scotland, and the Germans didn't get quite this far (with the exclusion of Rudolf Hess), so my personal experience is not directly applicable to CM. However, I am speaking in general terms, and architectural principles tend to be similar across Europe and Russia. Specifics of course are variable, due mainly to differences in available materials and climate, so there is a much larger contrast between, say, Britain and Italy than France and Germany. I was out today taking advantage of the sunshine and snow, getting a bit of fresh air and exercise and taking photographs with my ZoOpR 3l33t digital camera. I took a stroll up the hill from my town (Linlithgow, a Royal Burgh since 1389 and birthplace of Mary, Queen of Scots, for those interested), along a road which has been in my mind in relation to CM and I've been meaning to get a picture of. This is one of my 'good' pictures, the rest I took just to post here. I would classify this issue in the broad grouping of 'barriers'. Currently CM offers three kinds of barrier; low wall, hedge and bocage. They must occupy a whole tile – they cannot border a tile, and I'd say that is the main problem. In the above picture, the only modern thing is the paving. The road is somewhat sunken, and is immediately bordered by stone walls, an effect impossible to achieve in CM. The reason it caught my imagination is because it would apparently offer excellent small-arms protection for infantry. I have a couple of suggestions for additions to the 'barriers' department. Firstly, railings! Iron railings are to be found all over any self-respecting European town or city, usually supported by stone. I think they would make an unusual addition to CM, in that they provide negligible cover or concealment, but present a major physical barrier. Try crossing one of those things under fire! Secondly, tall walls. The first picture shows large stone walls separating people's gardens from the road, with doorways going through. The second picture is of shoulder-high walls with gateways. These are as ubiquitious as railings, and would be very different from the walls currently in CM, in that opposing forces could be on opposite sides without knowing it, and the obstacle could only be negotiated very slowly and vulnerably (ie. it's advisable to find a gateway or, indeed, create one). Part 2 should be up by the time you've read this... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Aitken Posted December 31, 2000 Author Share Posted December 31, 2000 I will call my second grouping 'slopes', which accounts for all of the other issues. I think this is the biggest problem CM has when it comes to urban scenarios. The engine is currently only capable of smooth slopes, more suited to rural scenarios. Europe is a pretty hilly place, and many towns and cities are built partly or wholly on steep hills. The hills themselves practically disappear, because they are covered with buildings, roads and other structures which adapt to the terrain. CM is incapable of reproducing this effect – put two buildings next to each other on a slope, and the engine can't display both at once. This picture illustrates two examples of terracing. In the foreground, a simple wall where the ground is level to it on the other side. In the background, a road loop leading up to a canal bridge, separated from the main road by a large wall (topped by railings). In other words, instead of the ground being sloped, it is simply divided into different levels by a vertical drop. This would be a very useful feature to have in CM. More terracing – the main road in the middle, the bridge loop above and a side road below. Looking down the side road – it is a couple of metres below the gardens on either side. The horizontal bands at the bottom are part of a railway station platform – the road cuts off to the right and then passes under the railway. A combination of terracing and a high wall. To sum up; as you probably gather, it is not ideal to use a 3D engine like CM's, which works from what is essentially a contoured 'board', and is restricted by its grid/tile system, to replicate urban landscapes – particularly from ancient countries like France or Russia, where the buildings and roads have propagated over hundreds of years and are usually very dense, varied and intricate. That said, the question is whether a totally realistic European town would actually make any difference to gameplay. I think we could do with a bit more variation just now, but greater complexity and accuracy will really come into its own if and when BTS achieve 1:1 squad representation. Under those circumstances it really will matter whether you have a 1-metre terrace to fight from or you're assaulting a building surrounded by high railings. =) David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Michael emrys Posted December 31, 2000 Share Posted December 31, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by David Aitken: The road is somewhat sunken, and is immediately bordered by stone walls, an effect impossible to achieve in CM. The reason it caught my imagination is because it would apparently offer excellent small-arms protection for infantry.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> It would also tend to trap any vehicles traveling between the walls. Even a heavy tank could not cross them without risking damage to its running gear, I should think. That would make them sitting ducks in an ambush. Nice pics, BTW. You have a good eye. Do this sort of thing professionally? Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jock Abroad Posted December 31, 2000 Share Posted December 31, 2000 Outstanding David! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maximus Posted December 31, 2000 Share Posted December 31, 2000 Yeah man, those are some really cool, no pun intended, pics. Reminds me of what it looks like around here. We've had snow on the ground since Dec. 13th. We haven't had snow on the ground this long for a long time. We've had pretty mild winters for the last several years. I think the last time it was like this was Jan '94. About everytime time it starts to clear up it snows again. About every 5 days or so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Michael emrys Posted December 31, 2000 Share Posted December 31, 2000 Just out of curiosity, Max, where y'at? Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt Canuck Posted December 31, 2000 Share Posted December 31, 2000 Those are beautiful pics, that's quite a picturesque town, and I like your ideas too Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chupacabra Posted December 31, 2000 Share Posted December 31, 2000 I had the same thoughts when I was down around Hastings a few months ago. I think the issue is the 20x20 tile size, which simply doesn't offer enough variation per tile to display realistic cities. I think CM2 will either have to go tile-crazy and have a tile for every circumstance (ie- building + wall, wall + wall, wall + road + trees) or decrease the tile size. Stalingrad was such a muddle that 20x20 tiles as they're currently implemented will only portray a very watered-down version of it. ------------------ Soy super bien soy super super bien soy bien bien super bien bien bien super super Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Aitken Posted December 31, 2000 Author Share Posted December 31, 2000 Michael emrys wrote: > Do this sort of thing professionally? Nope. =) I've thought about it, but so has everyone else. I don't really think photography is a big deal – you just need a good subject with good lighting, and a good camera. That said, you've only seen one of the pictures I took for artistic purposes – the rest weren't supposed to be pretty. =) Chupacabra wrote: > I think the issue is the 20x20 tile size, which simply doesn't offer enough variation Making the tiles smaller is probably the main enhancement which BTS could make in the short term. They're already coming up with a greater variety of buildings for CM 2, so hopefully we'll see different kinds of walls/railings too. In other words, we're looking at greater variety, and possibly greater density, depending on whether reducing the tile size is feasible. That would be a big improvement, more than adequate for a sequel. More fundamental enhancements to what the engine is capable of will probably have to wait until CM II. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DraGoon Posted December 31, 2000 Share Posted December 31, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by David Aitken: Firstly, railings! Iron railings are to be found all over any self-respecting European town or city, usually supported by stone. I think they would make an unusual addition to CM, in that they provide negligible cover or concealment, but present a major physical barrier. Try crossing one of those things under fire!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Although railings abound now, during the war, throughout Europe, most were removed and the iron smelted 'for the war effort'. In many towns and villages you can still see the stubs of the original railings poking out from the stonework. Happy Hogmany. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Aitken Posted December 31, 2000 Author Share Posted December 31, 2000 DraGoon wrote: > most were removed and the iron smelted 'for the war effort'. Hmm, good point. I know the British government made appeals for pots and pans during the war, on the pretence of using them to build Spitfires, which was nonsense. I think it was mainly for morale purposes, so people would feel they're helping the war effort. Considering that railings tend to serve an important purpose (security, which is a big problem in wartime), do you have any evidence that intact railings really were a rare sight in Europe or Russia? David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TownsendVol Posted December 31, 2000 Share Posted December 31, 2000 THanks for the Pics and the post David. That is one pretty and old looking town. I would love to see Europe but unfortunatly Uncle Sam sent me to South Korea instead. YUCK. That is a great post with some rather beautiful examples. "Play for and make the breaks, when one comes your way Score" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DraGoon Posted December 31, 2000 Share Posted December 31, 2000 Hi David No published evidence. I first came across this at My Grandparent's house, all the railings in the town (Motherwell) had been cut down and taken by the WD. I have seen the same cut down railing stubs and had a similar explanation while stationed in Germany (at Osnabruck, Paderborn, Sennelager, Fallingbostel.) In the Channel Islands the German occupiers took much of the locally available resources to help build their defences. I have however seen pictures of mansion houses (schloss etc.) in the ETO that still had their railings intact. I suppose it had to do with the relative importance of the building and its surrounds. I don't know about Russia. [This message has been edited by DraGoon (edited 12-31-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Los Posted December 31, 2000 Share Posted December 31, 2000 Nice work David, particularly your point about smoothing elevation changes and how that effects map design with roads and what not is well taken. Los Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Aitken Posted December 31, 2000 Author Share Posted December 31, 2000 DraGoon wrote: > I have however seen pictures of mansion houses (schloss etc.) in the ETO that still had their railings intact. I suppose it had to do with the relative importance of the building and its surrounds. Aye, that's what I would have thought. I still think railings would be an interesting addition to the game. They can't be any scarcer than Jagdtigers. =D David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DraGoon Posted December 31, 2000 Share Posted December 31, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by David Aitken: .....They can't be any scarcer than Jagdtigers. =D<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> HeHe I forgot to mention in my first reply, excellent photos, especially the first one, that's Post Card or competition quality, depends on whether you want cash or kudos. Have a great New Year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Aitken Posted December 31, 2000 Author Share Posted December 31, 2000 Thanks, you too! I'll have to take bad photos next time to avoid distracting people. =) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forever Babra Posted December 31, 2000 Share Posted December 31, 2000 I believe much of what you suggest can be accomplished with tiles which cover a smaller area. Maybe 1m x 1m? Hopefully we'll see this eventually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Aitken Posted December 31, 2000 Author Share Posted December 31, 2000 Forever Babra wrote: > Maybe 1m x 1m? That's a bit drastic... even 10m or 5m would be a big improvement. I'm not sure what issues govern tile size, though. There may be a big processor hit involved, in which case even this may be unfeasible in the short term. Maybe I should call upon my good friend the Search Engine, as I'm sure it's been discussed before. =) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Aitken Posted January 1, 2001 Author Share Posted January 1, 2001 Okay, I've dug up a thread from Steve from more than a year ago which gives an excellent description of how the tile system works. I'm not sure whether increasing the resolution is any more feasible now than it was then, but I suppose it's just another CPU demand, and we can't have everything. Explanation of CM's Tile System Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dNorwood Posted January 1, 2001 Share Posted January 1, 2001 Originally posted by David Aitken: I will add that, if anything, the issues are tougher in Germany (at least the part of Franconia I just came from) than what you indicate. I took a handful of picture's of the town my Mom's family lives in, and I intend to try and construct it as a map in CM (mostly as a learning experience), and everything I've read here ("here" meaning the forum, not just this thread) indicates I am probably doomed to failure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest *Captain Foobar* Posted January 1, 2001 Share Posted January 1, 2001 I would like to see this discussed further. One other issue that has to be addressed is the way that units interact with the terrain. My point is that a squad of infantry is spread out over a certain area, in the abstraction. It might play out differently with smaller terrain tiles. Hell I dunno, thats just the first thing that came to mind... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Aitken Posted January 1, 2001 Author Share Posted January 1, 2001 dNorwood wrote: > if anything, the issues are tougher in Germany (at least the part of Franconia I just came from) than what you indicate. Don't worry, I could come up with some much more complicated examples if I put my mind to it. =) I took the pictures I've posted here on my way home – I didn't even take a detour. Linlithgow is just a town, whereas I'm near the city of Edinburgh which is a goldmine of complex terrain. I'm planning to give it the digital camera treatment when I get the chance, and I'll post the results here. =) If you have any specific issues in mind, do throw them into the ring – if you had a way of getting some of your photos up too, that would be great! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dNorwood Posted January 1, 2001 Share Posted January 1, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by David Aitken: If you have any specific issues in mind, do throw them into the ring – if you had a way of getting some of your photos up too, that would be great!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I'll scan the pictures and try to get them up somewhere to post here - I'm not sure I'll have issues to raise as much as I'd be interested in getting experienced input about how to do certain things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
retarded_keydet Posted January 1, 2001 Share Posted January 1, 2001 I am fairly ignorant when it comes to coding a game engine but I agree that the lack of diversity in urban terrain makes most maps feel unrealistic. I doubt this is the fault of BTS because they probably don't have the production team to create various buildings or other urban structures yet. ------------------ There was a long silence of rememberance for the dead, to which I added these names: Ernst Neubach, Lensen, Wiener, Wesreidau, Prinz, Solma, Hoth, Olensheim, Sperlovski, Smellens, Dunde, Kellerman, Freivitch, Ballers, Frosch, Woortenbeck, Siemenlies... I refuse to add Paula to that list, and I shall never forget the names of Hals, or Lindberg, or Pferham, or Wollers. Their memory lves within me. There is another man, whom I must forget. He was called Guy Sajer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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