50mm mortars in CMBB?

[Kanonier Reichmann]

I was wondering whether BTS is likely to bother modelling the German 50mm mortars in CMBB and if so, how effective they might be. I know that the Germans phased them out after the early war years due to evidence that they were largely ineffective and yet the British steadfastly held onto their 2 inch mortars for whatever reason(s).

Let's face it, within CMBO the 2 inch mortar is certainly still effective provided you have a number of them all targetting the same general area at once. Usual result is one or two very panicked squads who often go running home to mummy with at least a couple of casualties.

I guess I'm wondering whether the 50mm mortar will be as effective or was there some inherent design flaw which rendered them next to useless?

Regards

Jim R.

[ 10-09-2001: Message edited by: Kanonier Reichmann ]

[Cogust]

Mu guess is that they will model them about the same way as they have modeled them in CMBO.

They are available June-August -44.

[CMplayer]

IMO the 2" mortar is a great bit of extra firepower for Commonwealth platoons, even employed singly. They are accurate, the team can run and they have no minimum range. I've had one of them babies take out a 150mm infantry gun that was blowing my pixelated Canadians to smithereens. They can also provide that little extra bit of firepower that can turn a platoon sized firefight in your favor.

[Kanonier Reichmann]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Cogust:

Mu guess is that they will model them about the same way as they have modeled them in CMBO.

They are available June-August -44.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good point. I forgot about that! Just goes to show how many early period quick battles I play. I would still love to see any grog information though on why the Germans phased out their 50mm mortars while the Poms held onto their equivalent weapon.

Regards

Jim R.

[Gen-x87H]

Probably because they had 81mm mortars instead?

Gen

[Kanonier Reichmann]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gen-x87H:

Probably because they had 81mm mortars instead?

Gen<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

OK, this was clearly meant in jest but the obvious correlation is that the Brits had the excellent 3 inch mortar yet didn't consider it superceded the trusty ol' 2 inch.

Regards

Jim R.

[CRSutton]

The German 50mm was really just a glorified grenade launcher and not a great weapon. It's range was limited and it did not have smoke ammo. I am guessing that the Germans phased out it use due to the fact that the men required to man it could be put to better use firing more effective weapons. (Not a minor concern with the growing manpower shortage in the later stages of the war)

The British mortar was a little better in that it had a slightly better range and could pop some smoke. Once again I am guessing but I suspect that the Brits did not fully abandon it for the same reason they did not abandon the Lee-Enfield. That is that the British economy was already taxed and it was easier on production to produce the older tried weapons than to suffer the losses in production involved with making new weapons. Seems like with the Brits, inertia was a major problem as well, but I wil leave that to the more knowledgable pundits posting here to confirm.

Although the Germans removed the 50mm from front line service, they still had thousands in inventory and many second line and Axis allied units used the mortars til the bitter end.

[JasonC]

Both the Russians and the Germans used 50mm mortars at the company level and 81mm (82mm for the Russians) at the battalion level, initially. The 50mm were found to be ineffective for the weight of the weapon.

A 50mm mortar round contains only 120 grams of actual HE. The mortar weighs ~30 lbs and the rounds 2 lbs apiece. The mortar and 35 rounds for it thus weigh 100 lbs, but would throw only 9 lbs of actual bursting charge at the enemy, spread over several minutes of firing time. Given the lack of accuracy of light mortars, only a portion even of that small amount would land close to the target.

Both the Germans and the Russians therefore replaced their company level mortars with the larger 81mm / 82mm variety. Those are much heavier weapons, but pack enough additional punch to make the weight useful. An 81mm mortar round holds 4.6 times as much HE as a 50mm round.

The 81mm mortar is much heavier, and with the ammo load a larger team was needed to carry it. But dismantled, it was still a weapon that could be moved on foot, in 3 pieces only marginally heavier than the 50mm, each - tube, stand, and baseplate. The burst radius of the rounds, with 550 grams of charge in each, was enough higher to make more of the near misses effective.

The Germans did continue to use the 50mm in some units into 1944. Russian 50mms were produced until early 1943. But the Germans fielded 75,000 81mm mortars over the course of the war, plus perhaps a third more in captured weapons (Russian, French, etc) and usually had 8-10 per battalion in practice (vs. 12 later war TOE, and 6 TOE at the start of the war). The Russians made 150,000 82mm mortars and 46,000 120mm ones. Most of the Russian weapons were made by the end of 1942, and virtually all of the remainder during 1943.

Mortar tubes are very easy to make; ammo is a more serious economic limit on the number of them than the tubes are. The Russians made 250 million mortar rounds during the war, the Germans around 105 million. In both cases 2/3rds were made in the second half of the war, 1943 on, primarily of the 81mm variety.

With so many made, each only needed a modest chance of inflicting a casualty to prove quite effective in combat. At max ROF, though, that comes to only about 2 hours of fire from each tube over its whole service life. So number of tubes and rate of fire were not any serious limit, except tactically - all the ammo could have been fired off by a fraction of the tubes fielded. The extra tubes provided flexibility, allowing the fire to be delivered where and when it was needed.

[Michael Emrys]

To add to Jason's informative post (and was the Sov light mortar really 50mm? somehow I had the notion that it was 45mm, but don't quote me on that ) I would only say that the British 2" had a couple things going for it vis the 50mm that have not yet been mentioned. One is that it was relatively light and compact. The second is that it could be aimed almost horizontally. This permitted it to lob bombs through windows and other vertical openings in buildings, a handy feature in urban fighting.

Michael

[Michael Dorosh]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Michael emrys:

To add to Jason's informative post (and was the Sov light mortar really 50mm? somehow I had the notion that it was 45mm, but don't quote me on that ) I would only say that the British 2" had a couple things going for it vis the 50mm that have not yet been mentioned. One is that it was relatively light and compact. The second is that it could be aimed almost horizontally. This permitted it to lob bombs through windows and other vertical openings in buildings, a handy feature in urban fighting.

Michael<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The 2 inch mortar came in two varieties - standard, and airborne. I believe the airborne one could be used from house to house in the manner you describe.

[Kanonier Reichmann]

Thank you Jason and "the two Michaels" for taking the time to post. Most informative.

Regards

Jim R.

[Slapdragon]

An additional problem with the German 50mm was that it was extremely complex. To emplace you set the weapon, checked a level, and then used 3 turn screws to sight in and prepare for fire. The process of going from packed for carry to action could take upwards to 5 minutes, and those little screws, while allowing precise accuracy, just were not fast at changing the ranging of the weapon. The hand held British 2 inch was much better because it was fired by the seat of the pants.