Runyan99 Posted April 30, 2001 Share Posted April 30, 2001 That is, will CM2 strictly cover the Finland front for the 1941+ Continuation War, or will the '39-'40 Winter War be included as well? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DEF BUNGIS Posted April 30, 2001 Share Posted April 30, 2001 Good question. Can you tell us what the difference is. More men??? Machine guns??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stalins Organ Posted April 30, 2001 Share Posted April 30, 2001 I'd guess more and better equipment - particularly more German and captured Russian stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Runyan99 Posted April 30, 2001 Author Share Posted April 30, 2001 Actually, I would expect the Finns to be very similar from '39-'41, although the Russians went though some very significant changes in organization and equipment in that time. That said, I cannot get specific off the top of my head on this one. I bring it up because I have not seen any clarification on whether the Winter War was planned to be covered, or skipped and thrown in to CM4 "Early War". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DEF BUNGIS Posted April 30, 2001 Share Posted April 30, 2001 I had a book along time ago on the Russo-Finn war, don't know what happened to it. Any way, I remember reading the high morale and willingness of even the common Finnish soldier was exceptional. An almost second nature for winter warfare. But what equipment did they really use??? Finish made?? German made?? CM doesn't model captured equipment, so that isn't going to fly in CM 2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stalins Organ Posted April 30, 2001 Share Posted April 30, 2001 I don't see how they're going to be able to do the Finns any sort of justice at all without captured equipment! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMC Posted April 30, 2001 Share Posted April 30, 2001 CM's cookie cutter MTOE approach to units will be problematic for the Finns. Not only should they have a mix of weapons, but a mix of uniforms and helmets too. ASL simplified everything and gave them German weapons, but this would only really apply to the Continuation War and even then they used plenty of Russian stuff. Tanks will be easy enough to show using different graphics files, though there will again be the German swastika problem since that was the tactical insignia used by the Finns. User-made graphics will again provide the solution to that problem. A nice Finn armor site: http://www.geocities.com/~fi1877/ [ 04-30-2001: Message edited by: RMC ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DEF BUNGIS Posted April 30, 2001 Share Posted April 30, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RMC: [QB]A nice Finn armor site: http://www.geocities.com/~fi1877/ <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> So it looks like almost all their stuff was captured or German made. BTS has their hands full with this one. Lots of people are interested in playing Finns. I would like to see Finns represented properly, and if it's not do-able now, it won't bother me one bit to see Finns excluded til CM 3. Either way, I'm looking forward to it and am sure BTS will do it right Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skipper Posted April 30, 2001 Share Posted April 30, 2001 Judging by the title "Barbarossa to Berlin" we are talking about 1941+. I guess... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMC Posted April 30, 2001 Share Posted April 30, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DEF BUNGIS: BTS has their hands full with this one. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> It shouldn't be that hard. The German armor models are already in the game. Once they add the Soviet ones, all that is required is some different .bmps to make the conversion. The tanks will be easy. It's the variety of infantry weapons and uniforms that will be the real bugbear. I'd like to see the variety of uniforms shown within a squad. They used 8 different helmet types according to a reenactor site I found. http://www.geocities.com/tulatuco/index.html Look at the two guys in the upper right of the main page photo. That's the kind of mismatched uniforms I'd like to see. [ 04-30-2001: Message edited by: RMC ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tss Posted April 30, 2001 Share Posted April 30, 2001 DEF BUNGIS wrote: But what equipment did they really use??? Everything. For example, there were little over 60 different field gun models in use. Finnish, Russian, Soviet, German, Swedish, British, American, French, Polish, and Japanese, at least. I'm not certain whether I remember all manufacturing countries. Oh, there was also one heavy cannon from Chile but it was a Swedish design. Most AT guns were either Swedish, Soviet, French, or German. There were also Finnish, Polish, and some third-country (Hungary?) licence-built copies of the Swedish Bofors gun. Not even infantry small-arms were uniform. There were at least Finnish, Russian, Soviet, Italian, and Japanese rifles in use. (Though, I don't know whether the light Japanese ones were used after Winter War because of supply problems). Finnish air-force had combat planes from the Netherlands, Italy, Germany, USA, UK, Soviet Union, and France. Non-combat planes were from all over world. Tank units are quite easy since there were only two models in use that weren't used anywhere else in the Eastern Front: BT-42 assault gun and Landsverk Anti AA-tank. Though, Finns modified captured T-26s by adding a bow MG (but not to all vehicles) and removing the rear-facing MGs. Similarily, the MGs of German-made vehicles (Stug-IIIG, PzKw-IVJ) were replaced by captured Soviet DTs. Well, it's time to start celebrating the 1 May, so I think I'll stop this here. - Tommi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarmo Posted April 30, 2001 Share Posted April 30, 2001 I'm almost certain the winter war is not in. The timeframe is not right, it would fall in place with CM3 or CM4, the early war. (if that's the way things work) One big difference would be the amount of SMG's. There was a lot more of them availlable later on. Tss! What the he**? If you start celebrating this early you'll pass out before midnight! That's no way to go. :eek: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kanonier Reichmann Posted April 30, 2001 Share Posted April 30, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jarmo: I Tss! What the he**? If you start celebrating this early you'll pass out before midnight! That's no way to go. :eek:<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Errr, excuse my ignorance. What happens on the 1st May? Regards Jim R. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarmo Posted April 30, 2001 Share Posted April 30, 2001 We call it "Vappu". It has something to do with the coming of spring. Used to be the workers day, or student's day or somthin' Anyway, you are generally supposed to drink vast amounts of alcohol in various forms. The rest comes naturally.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kanonier Reichmann Posted April 30, 2001 Share Posted April 30, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jarmo: We call it "Vappu". It has something to do with the coming of spring. Used to be the workers day, or student's day or somthin' Anyway, you are generally supposed to drink vast amounts of alcohol in various forms. The rest comes naturally.. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Whaddya mean "the coming of spring"? Spring doesn't start until the 1st September... well at least it does if you live downunder. Thanks for the info and I hope you Scandinavian types have a rip roaring "pissup"! (i.e. beerfest). Regards Jim R. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olle Petersson Posted April 30, 2001 Share Posted April 30, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kanonier Reichmann: Errr, excuse my ignorance. What happens on the 1st May?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>That's when all workers have a day off. The working class, led by the unions, participate in demonstrations, waving red flags and shouting slogans against the capitalistic oppression. A very nice Marxistic tradition, I must say. Cheers Olle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kekk1 Posted April 30, 2001 Share Posted April 30, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kanonier Reichmann: Errr, excuse my ignorance. What happens on the 1st May? Regards Jim R.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Vappu! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarmo Posted April 30, 2001 Share Posted April 30, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Olle Petersson: The working class, led by the unions, participate in demonstrations, waving red flags and shouting slogans against the capitalistic oppression. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Yea yea. That was 20 years ago.. Now it's about getting wasted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMC Posted April 30, 2001 Share Posted April 30, 2001 Well, the Germans celebrate the glory of the proletariat by putting up telephone poles with some twigs stuck to them and call them "May trees" (Mai Baeume). Then they get drunk, like this week in my town May day finishes up the Wine Fest they started on Friday. Consume mass quantities! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
illo Posted April 30, 2001 Share Posted April 30, 2001 Also finns were quite familar with guns. Large percent of finns lived outside cities back then so there were many who had hunted in forests for food since they were little. 10-> years of weekly rifle usage in forests will give you edge to your opponent with no such experience. Also these people were familiar with forest and knew all the tricks which helped living and staying alive there. So there was much "know how" for forest/winter warfare at grass root level. Hyvät vaput, menen tästä nukkumaan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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