COMBAT MISSIONS: Armour Tactics - Panzer IVG/H/J - Medium Tank

[Manx]

You must be getting tired of me asking this question, but here goes anyway: What are your battlefield experiences with this vehicle in CMBO? - Do you have any insights on the Panzer IV's strengths and weaknesses?. Got any CM battlefield stories you would like to share? What tactics work with it, and, just as importantly - what don't!!.

Again any info you can pass on regarding this AFV would be much appreciated.

If your new to the forum and your not sure what i'm attempting to do, take a look at the ARMOUR (armor?) page on COMBAT MISSIONS.

btw - The M26/T26E4 Pershing page is now up. Thanks to those who took the time to contribute.

TIA

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COMBAT MISSIONS - Resources For Combat Mission

[This message has been edited by Manx (edited 01-26-2001).]

[M. Bates]

Since most CM engagements take place at close range, all German tanks are at a slight disadvantage. However the Panzer IV is especially vulnerable because of its thin armour. Whereas the Tigers can afford to make a mistake and take a few hits, the IV will be toast. Be aware of Greyhounds and flanking attacks by Shermans. On the other hand, the Panzer IV does have a good gun, is less likely to get bogged down than the other heavy German tanks, and the turret speed is not too painful either.

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http://combatmission.portland.co.uk

For all our AARs

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"I drive over farmyard animals in my farmyard tractor, then I laugh afterwards."--CavScout [comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical]

[This message has been edited by M. Bates (edited 01-26-2001).]

[jasoncawley@ameritech.net]

It has a pretty low profile, which is good. In tank vs. tank fights, you are relying on the same things Allied tankers always do - teamwork and shooting first and ambush and flank locations, etc.

It can shrug off bazooka rounds (skirts probably help) fairly often, but can be holed by them and by any main tank type gun. It's a tank, and equal to the Sherman in most respects.

I can also related one CM experience involving the Pz IV. But a spoiler alert first, if you haven't played most of the scenarios yet. Don't read the following unless you've played the scenarios, or don't care.

* * * * * * * * * * * *

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

In the short, 10 turn Hurtgen scenario, a U.S. infantry company with arty support and air support (which the briefing says nothing about), but not tanks or heavy AT weapons, is tasked to assault an open ridge line, backed up by a wooded one. A band in front of the second ridge is scattered trees, behind in the heavier forest proper. All the objectives are in the woodline of this second ridge.

The time available is 10 minutes and the map is very small - no room for any fancy flanking. And the cover in front of that ridge consists of the prior crest-line, a small patch of brush or two, and half-a-dozen single 20x20m areas of scattered trees.

Although at set-up the U.S. player doesn't know it, the Germans are waiting just behind the first crest in foxholes, with their "outpost" line. And once on the crest, the Americans come into range of the supporting main position, which includes mortars, machineguns, infantry, and - one humble Pz IV.

That tank is the scariest thing I've yet seen in CM, simply because of the context in which it appears, and the fact that it is a fully functioning, fully capable, full-blown tank. Not an armored car, or assault gun, mind.

You are on a ridge-line and there is no cover. Your AT weapons consist of 3 bazookas, and a couple of squads with demo charges. From the 1st ridgeline (not to hard to take) and its scattered trees, it is nearly 200 yards to the forward portion of the next ridge. Where, concealed in scattered trees, is this humble beastie. The only real protection on that ridge is the foxholes left by the German outpost line. The tank quickly gets them zeroed and sends in shell after shell.

Do you know what the hit probability of a bazooka firing through scattered trees at a short AFV 200 yards away is? About 4%, that's what - LOL. My bazooka teams had used a few rockets on foxholes in the early fight (the battle opens with a mad minute as your lead-off guys draw the fire of the entire German OP line and your whole company replies). Lost some when a carrier or two were hit, as well. All told I think I had 16 or 18 bazooka rounds that all got fired at that Pz IV.

I hit it four times, one upper hull front and one turret front form long range (~150 yards) and 2 turret fronts from close (50 yards) late in the battle. "No serious damage" was the best I got. This was certainly unlucky, but it shows it does happen.

And the air force went after that beastie, with several runs that made an impressive amount of dust and noise. In one of these there was a loud bang smack on the Pz IV and a big uncertain German cross afterward, in the dust. Did they get it? 30 seconds later, nope, it is still crawling around in those trees spitting at me - LOL.

I managed to clear out the infantry and soon enough to actually rush the objective. The Germans had like a broken squad and 5 men left in another pinned one hiding in the trees, left at the end. I had around 40 guys around this Pz IV trying to finish the sucker with grenades, hiding in the German foxholes, playing tag team as it crawled away from one toward another.

My last bazooka team (the others had a man left each, but no more rockets) got its shots right at the end, at after 10th minute they were sitting in a little bit of brush staring done the things' barrel at 50 yards, with the ammo reading at "out".

My plan after that was, I was going to have the 105mm arty dump smoke all over it. I had one demo charge left in one squad coming up through the forest behind it. They'd try to tackle it in the smoke, and if that didn't work everybody would chase it out of the woods into the open by rushing it in the smoke. Then the men could hide in the woods proper while the FO tried to tag it I suppose.

"Battalion HQ, yes, this is the company you just sent on that idiot frontal assault on that ridge you said we already owned, even though I told you different. Yes, we took the darn thing. I'm here right now. Now, there was a whole German company up here, but they scrammed or are dead by now. Yeah, sure. Now, listen major. The reason for this radio call is... There is this tank still out there, in the open, between us and Battalion HQ. Yeah, we used all the bazooka rockets. I saw four of them bounce off the sucker myself. Demo charges too. Air force hit it, its still running. Um, Major, we were just in quite a firefight and the ammos a little low up here. There are also a number of wounded, some of theirs too. Remember that lecture the colonel gave about how the Germans like to defend with lots of little counterattacks? I think that should be forming up about now...

Um, could you please send something up here that can kill a freakin' tank?"

[109 Gustav]

They are pretty much the same as the Sherman 75, an excellent infantry support tank, but too weak to go head to head with enemy AFVs. Their gun is more accurate than the sherm's, so you can stand off further from infantry and still hit with every shot. And the skirts really help fending off zook shots.

For antitank work, have them hunt forward, preferebly in pairs or threes. Overwatch them with tank destroyers such as the jgdPz IV/70 that can make kills at slightly longer range. Beware of flanking attacks, your turret is too slow to keep up with a fast moving Sherman or hellcat.

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Well my skiff's a twenty dollar boat, And I hope to God she stays afloat.

But if somehow my skiff goes down, I'll freeze to death before I drown.

And pray my body will be found, Alaska salmon fishing, boys, Alaska salmon fishing.

-Commercial fishing in Kodiak, Alaska

[Medieval]

I agree with others about the IV as being somewhat vulnerable in the game due to close range battles and its thin armor- especially in the side and rear. However, BO is a 1944-45 game- late war where the Allies start producing effective anti-armor AFVs and weapons. Largely, it just gets outclassed....

I think you'll find the IVH/Js AWESOME tanks before the late war period.

Andy

Member- the IVH Club.

[Lacky]

Originally posted by 109 Gustav:

They are pretty much the same as the Sherman 75...

My sentiments exactly. The best way to use Mark IV's is in packs, just like how one uses an M4.

[Guest Mr. Johnson-<THC>-]

Be very, very careful with this tank. Do not attack the enemy, until you know whats in front of you. Gustav is wrong, used them in platoon strength. 2 or 3 is too few. And I've found that Zooks shred this thing, skirts or no skrits. In fact I've seen nothing to lead me to believe that skrits help this tank at all against shaped charge rds. Let the enemy come to you. And it may be equal to a M4 Sherman but any upgunned or uparmored Shermans, you will be at a disadvantage.

[Shadow 1st Hussars]

Originally posted by Manx:

You must be getting tired of me asking this question, but here goes anyway: What are your battlefield experiences with this vehicle in CMBO? - Do you have any insights on the Panzer IV's strengths and weaknesses?. Got any CM battlefield stories you would like to share? What tactics work with it, and, just as importantly - what don't!!.

Again any info you can pass on regarding this AFV would be much appreciated.

If your new to the forum and your not sure what i'm attempting to do, take a look at the ARMOUR (armor?) page on COMBAT MISSIONS.

btw - The M26/T26E4 Pershing page is now up. Thanks to those who took the time to contribute.

TIA

The PzIV is _somewhat_ comparible to the sherman, but seems to have better accuracy at longer ranges. DEAFINATELY not a tank that you want to rush to the front lines, I'll usually use it for flank support, covering the ubertanks on their way in. In my mind it's low frontal armour makes it a useless steel box in the ground when dug in.

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No bastard has ever won a war by dying for his country. They won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country.

shadow@jagdtiger.de

[Guest Rex_Bellator]

At the risk of re-opening an old (and very heated!) thread I'll advise that it has been proven that the Panzer IV series in particular has big problems going hull down at medium range (500-1000m 'ish against Shermans and other 75mm tanks). Always avoid going hull down at that sort of range against that kind of opposition.

The reason is the relatively poor turret armour which 75mm's can penetrate at that range, although they wouldn't be likely to penetrate the hull armour. Forcing people to concentrate, aim and shoot at the turret in those conditions means a dramatic increase in KO'd Panzer IV's, at least 30% (despite the 'to hit' penalty v's Hull Down) in the tests which were run by various avid gamers. If the gunners are merely aiming at the 'centre of mass' of the Panzer IV in the open they are very likely to hit the hull and bounce off.

The thread was also enlivened by posts from RL tankers who backed up the fact that they aim for the centre of mass in RL, and we all ended the best of friends congratulating BTS on such a fine game - sickening isn't it!

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"We're not here to take it - We're here to give it"

General Morshead's response to the popular newspaper headline "Tobruk Can Take It"

[Goofy]

My experience is that in the game I try to avoid Stuarts with the Mk IV! I don't know if it's the weak armor of the Mk IV or all the lucky hits by the Stuarts but I seem to always get the bloody end of the stick in a clash between the two types. I'd actually prefer to take on the Shermies! I seem to be able to score hits on both but oddly I get more kills against the Sherman. Perhaps the Stuart is a bit overmodeled? I like using the Stuart when I have the chance, for myself I prefer them over the Walker. Is it just me?

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Your mother was a hamster and your father smelled of elderberries!

[Henri]

Originally posted by Goofy:

My experience is that in the game I try to avoid Stuarts with the Mk IV! [snip] Is it just me?

Must be, just today, my PzIV took out his second Stuart of the game.

Henri

[109 Gustav]

The Pz IV isn't vulnerable to frontal shots from stuarts except at point blank range, but if a stuart gets on your flanks, their reload rate is so high that they can get off at least two shots before that slow turret swings around. Again, always watch your flanks with the IV, because by the time you see anything, it's too late.

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Well my skiff's a twenty dollar boat, And I hope to God she stays afloat.

But if somehow my skiff goes down, I'll freeze to death before I drown.

And pray my body will be found, Alaska salmon fishing, boys, Alaska salmon fishing.

-Commercial fishing in Kodiak, Alaska

[Slapdragon]

I find the Mk IVs to be one of the most abused and poorly used tanks of the game. It is very close to the M4A3 in power -- better gun but no .50 cal. It is more nimble that Tigers, and make a good wing man for the larger tank. I also find that a MkIV teamed with a Stug or Hetzer is a nice team since the turret of the MkIV can swing to the defend the pair in chance encounters.

Probably what the MkIv is best at, along with the Stug, is plain old garden variety infantry overwatch keeping the bad guys away from vulnerable advancing infantry.

What it is not is a gun fighter. Many people who I have played have German tanks playing essentially the gunfighter role, relying on huge armour to protect from harm and just rumbling down the road. Works with a Panther in some cases. But the MkIV needs to be run a lot more like an early Sherman with a better gun.

[Schugger]

Well, the Mark IV has some advantages which should not be forgotten.

It is quite cheap, has a decent gun which can deal with all but the most heavy allied tanks, has good HE performance against soft targets and the variants with the "medium" turret are more able to respond quickly to flanking attempts like the Panther or Tiger. It suffers greatly from it's thin skinned armour which could be penetrated frontally by any Allied MBT and it's 50 mm turret even by the 37 mm guns mounted on Greyhounds and Stuarts.

But with the changes made in the 1.1 patch where Allied tanks and TDs use their tungsten rounds more deliberately, the German heavies expectancy is probably not that much larger as a Mark IVs.

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Veni, Vedi, Schuggi

[:USERNAME:]

They work well with panthers and Tigers. That may seem obvious but the heavy tanks become force multipliers in that they can flush out the oposition and the PIVs can then use discretion and concentration of force.

I wonder if the mantlet of the tank is not madeled in the game correctly. It seems curved in photos and overlapping some metal. Similar to the Tiger I front turret controversey.

I have seen photos of the PIV front turret up-armored by tacking on tracks to the front plates. Some tracks even look like they have cutouts in them for the sights/mg and I have seen T34 tracks on there also. the germans had a curved spaced turret armor addition on the front of teh Panzer III L/M series and why didnt they have this on the Panzer IV?

The PIV and StuGs alomost had an SOP on hanging tracks about the hull in 1944. If nothing else, these tracks were hardened steel, unlike the rubbery shermans, and would upset the caps on the AP shell of most antitank fire. This would work well with the face hardened spaced hull front armor.

Personally I think the MKIv should have been converted to JPnz production by mid 1944. Either that or a turret design overhaul.

It would be nice to have a shoot'n'scoot command for vehicles like these or have the TACAI use alot of discretion when facing enemy tanks. This way if you positioned your tanks so that they could retreat, they would.