Tanaka Posted April 4, 2001 Share Posted April 4, 2001 I find it hard that no one noticed or as written about this, missed fire from infantry small weapons will many times claim more victims to the hidden enemy infantry targets then to the intended target (I call it the lost bullet syndrome). I will try to make myself clear: NCO- Open fire on that enemy infantry squad ! These guys are so bad at shooting, that they will miss a lot of fire Then a miracle happens, they (without knowing) hit more bullets on hidden infantry then on the intended target... Now if this happens once in a while, I don't have a problem with that... but, it's not the case, if you don't believe me just run a few tests (like I did) and see for yourselves, notice also that area fire is much less effective... Instead just aim to one of them, that the others will get their share By contrast if any of the hidden infantry targets is out of LOS of the firing unit ,(but there is no physical impossibility to hit them like in a forest), even if they are only at 5m from the target, no bullet will hit them. What I ask is, prove me wrong (yes, I'm human) or please "fix" this for CM2, Thanks in advance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M Hofbauer Posted April 4, 2001 Share Posted April 4, 2001 this is nothing new. it will happen when the targetted squad and the other squad are very close to each other. it's all about (deja vu!) - you guessed it, ABSTRACTION. The soldiers represented by that squad marker are supposed to be around that place, and if another squad ios around the same space, they will get hjust the same share as the targeted one. IMHO your problem, tanaka, is that you find something missing which in reality isn't there in the first place, id est, in reality you can't really discern between squads, all you see is a bunch of enemy soldiers (what little you see of them), you wouldn't know if they all belonged to one squad, if they belong to two or three squads, and which soldiers belong into which squad. That is as nonrealistic luxury presented to us by CMBO as a gift of the game to the armchair general. If there's a bunch of soldiers in the same vicinity, and they are being targetted, the group of soldiers in that vicinity as a whole will suffer casualties, in reality the firing and hittting is not restricted to exclusively the soldiers from squad "A", instead it is just as likely that the guys from squad "B" which are running (loitering) besides those from squad "A" should get hit as well. ------------------ "OK, I stand corrected, but that still doesn't sound effective as the Germans still did lose the war." (Maximus) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted April 4, 2001 Share Posted April 4, 2001 That raises a neat point, M Hofbauer. Maybe one day when individual soldiers are modelled in CM, players won't see enemy soldiers in groups - just lots of individuals running around with no way to discern who is in what enemy squad. Come to think of it, one wonders why CC never did that - you always got to see how enemy soldiers were grouped. Never thought of that before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanaka Posted April 4, 2001 Author Share Posted April 4, 2001 Originally posted by M Hofbauer: ...it's all about (deja vu!) - you guessed it, ABSTRACTION. The soldiers represented by that squad marker are supposed to be around that place, and if another squad ios around the same space, they will get hjust the same share as the targeted one... Not the same share,they will have more (do some testing) and that is the problem ... in reality you can't really discern between squads, all you see is a bunch of enemy soldiers (what little you see of them), you wouldn't know if they all belonged to one squad, if they belong to two or three squads, and which soldiers belong into which squad... Are you sure of that ? Then try this: Target a sniper (one man),that will have at a 9m distance for each side a hidden squad... Now guess what ? In the end most of the times the sniper will be alive, but the squads will have up to 25% loss. Want even better ? Again target a sniper and deploy on each side ,at a 9m distance, a hidden sniper, again wait for a min... I bet that at least the chance are equal for all the snipers to get a shot... ...in reality the firing and hitting is not restricted to exclusively the soldiers from squad "A", instead it is just as likely that the guys from squad "B" which are running (loitering) besides those from squad "A" should get hit as well. They are not running, they are hidden in a forest (wish in CM terms is the best terrain cover). So these guys hidden in a forest, (don't say to me they are standing, because as we know they wont even reload when they are hidden), will get at least an equal share of the fire, Sorry, I don't buy that... As an example, (one in many),I've had a panicked squad running into a zone where my troops were hidden, this squad was under fire from 3 enemy squads... At the end the panicked squad got only one man KO, but all, all my hidden squads in that zone got casualties, my enemy didn't even know... What I'm saying with all this it's only these " the lost bullet syndrome" is set to high and not that it shouldn't exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homba Posted April 4, 2001 Share Posted April 4, 2001 Sounds like a reasonable complaint to me. Homba Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Ausf B Posted April 4, 2001 Share Posted April 4, 2001 From page 62 of the CM manual: Small arms fire from a unit (simulating sometimes the firing of a dozen rifles and machineguns at a time) is NOT directed at one pinpoint area only. Instead, each "shot" affects and area around the unit target or zone, in which it can cause casualties or suppression. ------------------ What a bunch of horsecrap. -Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanaka Posted April 4, 2001 Author Share Posted April 4, 2001 sorry... double post [This message has been edited by Tanaka (edited 04-04-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanaka Posted April 4, 2001 Author Share Posted April 4, 2001 Originally posted by Vanir Ausf B: From page 62 of the CM manual: Small arms fire from a unit ... Instead, each "shot" affects and area around the unit target or zone, in which it can cause casualties or suppression. Yes, I also have the manual, but the question is not about if the squads in the area should have casualties or suppression,(wish they should have), it is about the amount of casualties. I find it hard to believe that hidden units in a forest will have as much or more damage then the standing ones. And don't forget what has been said by me on the 1st post By contrast if any of the hidden infantry targets is out of LOS of the firing unit ,(but there is no physical impossibility to hit them like in a forest), even if they are only at 5m from the target, no bullet will hit them" Another system limitation that clearly violates that rule stated in the manual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Hankey Posted April 5, 2001 Share Posted April 5, 2001 Tanaka, when you've repeated this about 10,000 times for statistical accuracy, get back to us. . Besides, is it really THAT big a deal? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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