New minefield markers

[Apache]

Has anyone had any trouble with the new Minefield markers posted at the CM HQ site? They look good in the pic but having downloaded them I have tried a variety of ways to get them into the bmp file (mod manager and drag/drop) but nothing happens. I still get the original white markers, whether I'm placing mines or encountering them.

[M Hofbauer]

the signs look good but.... they are not according to specifications, even though I have to admit that it was allowed to use white only if red was not available, and that many other, non-regulation forms of markers were probably used. Even then, the original CM ones were probably closer ...

Even then, maybe we should have authentic markers...

the problem with minefield signs is that in reality minefields were handled quite a bit different to how CM portrays them - it seems german regulations don't provide for a special "AT mines" sign, only the regular red-white-red "Minen" sign, since the large minefields often (usually) had both varieties.

Also, the attempt to create authentic minefield signs will always fall short because the bmp file is used for both sides, germans _and_ allies....

ok I've tried to do the german ones, but they look a bit cartoonish with their bright-red etc.

(no, the image link is not wrong, if you don't see it it's because of geocities...sometimes it helps to copypaste the image url into a new browser)

[This message has been edited by M Hofbauer (edited 03-20-2001).]

[Juju]

IIRC they are zipped into a directory tree. In other words, when you unzip it you need to open several directories to get to the files. Slight oversight when zipping them most probably.

Try unzipping and copying them manually.

Sounds a bit vague, I guess, but hope this helps.

[Maximus]

Yes, Juju is correct, the zip file contained about 5 or 6 unneccessary folders. So you need to go through them and manually copy over the bmps.

Hmm, M Hofbauer, I didn't know minefields had signs in real life so any sign at all is unrealistic. I just played the scenario Mashausen and it had mines in it and the new signs were helpful. Yellow for Anti-Tank and White for Anti-Personel.

[M Hofbauer]

Maximus, your ignorance is showing in an appaling way...

of course minefields were marked you ******...

mines weren't just strewn around like that...for every regular minefield a detailed map had to be done...the laying of mines was to precise measurements...signs which showed passage ways etc. pp.

may I refer you to pp. IV-35 of the HGMF for a little first enlightenment about german minefield practice...

[Apache]

Done it, thx. As you say I think the JPG and paint files may have screwed up the process. I think these signs are better personally.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by M Hofbauer:

Maximus, your ignorance is showing in an appaling way...

of course minefields were marked you ******...

mines weren't just strewn around like that...for every regular minefield a detailed map had to be done...the laying of mines was to precise measurements...signs which showed passage ways etc. pp.

may I refer you to pp. IV-35 of the HGMF for a little first enlightenment about german minefield practice...

It's a nice looking sign. Is that Fraktur script?

I would suggest that field-expedient signs were also seen in the field, though how commonly I wouldn't presume to guess.

[Stefan Fredriksson]

Minefields should always be marked. If nothing else, to keep your own troops out of them. The point of the minefields is not primarily to cause casualties, but to deny your enemy a passage/piece of property/road/etc.

This is how it *should* be. But not how it is always done. Ref: Bosnia, for instance.

[M Hofbauer]

Mike,

1. no, I do not think it's a nice pic. I am not satisfied with how the sign looks. But at least it's according to regulations.

2. I am not sure what script that is, to tell you the truth I took the inscription from a historical sketch of a mine sign.

3. lastly: yet another atttempt at a new free server:

[This message has been edited by M Hofbauer (edited 03-21-2001).]

[Michael Dorosh]

Hof

You are totally wrong on this one. It is a mother-beautiful sign.

(Of course, I have no taste, either.)

Congrats on finding a new server?

edit - I really like the red; it serves for high visibility among the clutter of the battlefield. In the end, the signs serve no tactical purpose and are merely a gameplay device, so it makes sense for the player to be able to see them better.

[This message has been edited by Michael Dorosh (edited 03-21-2001).]

[Maximus]

Oh now I see! That's why they say "Atchung Minen!" They don't want you to go through them. So they waste the resources of digging holes and placing explosives in them, yet they mark them so noone will actually be STUPID enough to waltz through them. MAKES TOTAL SENSE!

So why don't they just put up these signs without actually putting mines in them. Following your logic, the enemy would have to find a different way to go around a phantom mine field. Now that would be smart.

If the Germans truely did this, NO WONDER why they lost the war! The average Gernman soldier must have been the total goof that world media usually portrays them as if they can't remember where they put their own mines. IIRC, the VC didn't mark their pungy stick booby traps with signs saying, "Amerikansi, do not step here or U will die."

Please, M Hafbauer, gimme a break.

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[This message has been edited by Maximus (edited 03-21-2001).]

[M Hofbauer]

Maxipad, you're so blatantly ignorant that all I can say is cite a quote of Horvath which roughly translates as: Nothing gives you such a feeling of infinity as does the stupidity of others.

[Guest Offwhite]

Actually, Max, the Handbook that Hofbauer is referring to explains minefield signage in some detail. There were indeed warning signs or stakes, but they were placed so as to be visible (or at least obvious) only from German positions. There was often a single strand of barbed wire at the edge of the field as well, and both signs and wire were placed for exactly the reason Stefan gives, to avoid friendlies stumbling into their own mines.

There is also mention of decoy signs marking dummy minefields, which does make me think that the Germans expected the enemy to be able to see their signs at least some of the time.

As for soldiers being too stupid to remember where the mines are laid, keep in mind that engineers lay mines, and other troops defend the positions.

------------------

Yes, makin' mock o' uniforms that guard you while you sleep

Is cheaper than them uniforms, an' they're starvation cheap

- Rudyard Kipling, "Tommy"

[This message has been edited by Offwhite (edited 03-21-2001).]

[Michael Dorosh]

http://carlisle-www.army.mil/cgi-bin/usamhi/DL/showdoc.pl?docnum=351

Maximus, that's the URL for the Handbook Hof is referring to.

[M Hofbauer]

Since I am always in support of the cognitively challenged, this is for my dear mente captus maximus:

TM-E 30-451

Section VII. MINEFIELDS

I. General

The Germans make extensive use of mines which they consider a most effective defensive weapon.

Minefields are utilized chiefly to cover defensive actions and retreats, although limited use is made of them in offensive actions for flank protection.

In a static situation the Germans regard minefields as an element of the front-line position, laid out according to an over-all mine plan developed in close conjunction with that for the fields of fire of all weapons.

Within recent months, standard German doctrine for minefield location

has been modified. ‘Instead of laying dense minefields in front of the main line of resistance, dispersed mines are laid there, while the minefields proper are sited within the main battle position.

2. Surveying of Minefields

The Germans consider it necessary to survey the location of-minefields and individual mines within the minefields. German engineers are instructed to choose reference points (Festpunkte or FP) for minefields which easily can be identified. At a grade crossing, at the intersection of two improved roads, at the edge of a village, or some

such favorable location, this can be done without any difficulty. In some instances, however, the Germans are forced to use “guide wire” and auxiliary fixed points (Vermessungspunkte or VP).

A type of auxiliary fixed point that has proved practicable is the center of an equilateral triangle with sides 1.5 to 25 feet long. The corner points and the fixed point itself may be stakes, rails, or concrete or steel girders about 3 feet in length connected with barbed wire. Such a fixed point can be reestablished easily because even heavy shelling will rarely destroy more than one or two stakes.

A minefield is limited by the four corner points Al, AZ, As, and Aq. The corner points are marked clockwise, A, and A, forming the base line on the German side. The survey of the field refers to one or both points of the base line.

Auxiliary fixed points, called “mine stakes” (Minenpfähle), are used if necessary. Fixed points may be reference points found on the map or auxiliary fixed points established by the troops. Distances are measured in meters; azimuth readings are taken on the German issue compass-divided into 6,400 mils like the U. S. compass but read counterclockwise, and marked with the letters KZ (Kompasszahl) . The new-type compass called

“march compass” has clockwise graduation and is indicated with the letters MKZ. The Germans use the magnetic azimuth and always proceed in their survey from the friendly toward the enemy side.

The Germans believe that it is advantageous to lay a continuous chain of reference points 600 to 900 feet apart, through a division sector. This chain can be used to determine the location of ditches, trenches, obstacles, and pillboxes, as well as minefields. Individual points are designated with Roman numerals, starting on the right flank

of the division sector.

3. Laying of Minefields

a. PATTERNS. To assure the greatest possible

effect, minefields normally are laid out in definite patterns. The Germans make an exception to this practice, however, in sectors where they do not intend to undertake offensive actions. There they disperse the mines irregularly in the areas between defensive positions.

The main belts of a major antitank minefield

laid in uniform pattern normally consist of antitank mines with a sprinkling of antipersonnel mines in the forward edge of the field. Both types may be fitted with anti-lifting devices, and some of the antipersonnel mines have trip wires

attached. In some instances, these mines are

placed in the intervals betwen the diagonal wires of a double-apron fence, with trip wires fastened to the diagonals.

A number of antitank mines are laid in the

forward edge of antipersonnel minefields to prevent armored vehicles from detonating the main belt of antipersonnel mines. The forward edges of minefields of all types often are sown with explosive charges placed in wooden boxes fitted with pressure fuzes. These act as both antitank and antipersonnel mines, and discourage the use of detectors to locate the mines.

Forward of most regular fields, and particu-

larly in front of lanes, mines may be found widely spaced or scattered at random in unmarked groups. Mines also are laid in spaces running out at right angles from the forward edge of the minefield to damage vehicles moving along the field in search of lanes.

All pressure-type antitank and antipersonnel

mines are laid in lines. For measuring distances and spaces, the troops use a mine-measuring wire (Minenmessdraht) which they themselves make from old telephone wire. (See Figure 15.) The mine-measuring wire is 24 meters , (about 25 yards) long, and every meter (3 feet 3 inches) is marked with a piece of wood. The rings on the ends are about 5 inches in diameter. The measuring wire, in addition to measuring the distance

between fixed points, serves to lay out right angles by staking out a triangle with sides of 6, 8, and 10 meters respectively. Spaces between mines are determined by reference to the marks on wire ; the four rings on one end are used to offset the rows.

The density of a minefield depends upon the

interval between mines and the number of rows.

The table above represents the density.

Mine lanes are left open for patrols, and passage lanes for assault troops. For permanent patrols new lanes are made from time to time, and the old ones closed. A mine-free safety strip is provided on the Germans’ side.

The Germans normally lay mine belts in indi-

vidual sections 80 by 105 feet. The sections usually are staggered, and, for extensive mine belts, they are combined in units of three or four to form forward or reverse arrowheads, or echelons.

Minefields arranged in echelon are surveyed by using corner posts on the hostile side of intermediate minefields as survey points.

The Germans emphasize that minefields must be covered by fire, although during a hasty withdrawal they often do not follow this principle. It is common for a regular minefield to have a listening post with two men at the rearward edge ; about 70 or 80 yards farther to the rear there usually is a covering party of four or five men armed with one or two light machine guns.

When the Germans are in hasty withdrawal, they usually lay a large number of small nuisance minefields. These fields contain many different types of mines, which often are unmarked and show every evidence of hurried laying. The consequent lack of pattern uniformity makes their detection and clearance a laborious and dangerous task.

Though no consistency is noted in layout

and types of mines used in such fields, the Germans show certain preferences in their choice of sites for them.

b. LOCATION. In general, mines are laid either close to, or on, roads ; on airfields and railways ; and along telegraph routes.

Surfaced portions of roads usually are avoided by the hasty mine layer, but khaki-painted T-Mines sometimes are placed on the surface at dips in the road, in the hope that drivers will be unable to check their

vehicles in time to avoid them. The Germans also place mines along the shoulders of the road opposite narrow places where drivers have to detour to pass, and at the entrances to defiles where they have to pull off the road to wait for vehicles moving in the opposite direction. Other places usually sown with antitank mines are turnouts, sharp bends, the unsurfaced islands sometimes found at crossroads, berms, and well worn wheel ruts.

c. CONCEALMENT. The Germans, with great

ingenuity, attenqlt to make their tnines difficult to detect. They bury them as much as 24 inches below the surface where they explode only after passage of a number of vehicles has compacted the earth cover sufficiently to operate the fuze.

They put explosives in wooden boxes to prevent the effective operation of ordinary mine detectors, and mark tire prints in the earth on top of the mine by drawing a detached axle and wheels over it.

The Germans also show considerable ingenuity in siting random antipersonnel mines on the line of the hostile advance. Road demolitions are plentifully sown with S-Mines, and kilometer posts at points where vehicular drivers have to dismount to read directions are similarly treated.

S-Mines also are placed in ditches, often close to to the trip-wire peg of another mine.

Nuisance fields on lines of cbmmunication generally are closely spaced, occasionally so closely as to cause sympathetic detonation. This is particularly possible when mines are laid with their pressure plates almost flush with the surface of the ground and only lightly covered with earth.

German dummy minefields take various forms.

In some cases a trip wire is laid to give the appearance of a minefield perimeter wire, with the usual lanes, and the ground is disturbed at regular intervals. Scrap metal, often dispersed with real mines, is placecl in shallow holes to cause a reaction in the mine detector. Dummy mines often are wired in and connected with booby traps.

4. Marking of Minefields

The Germans stress the marking of minefields

and attempt to mark them in such a manner that they cannot be recognized by the enemy but can easily be found by their own troops.

Their methods of marking minefields are not uniform. The front edge of a field often is unmarked and unwired; the rear edge seldom so. Some fields have been found unmarked, but because of many accidents caused by their own minefields, the Germans issued orders within recent months making proper marking obligatory.

The following are typical examples of mark-

ings by the Germans, the type used depending on the situation and terrain:

corner-post marking stakes; double-apron fence on the enemy side and a single trip wire on the friendly side, or the reverse ; single knee-high wires ; cattle fencing; empty mine crates ; and signs.

The length of marking stakes varies with the

terrain. They are flattened on one side for a length of about 8 inches. The flat surface is

painted red, with the letter M (Minen) in black.

Such stakes are used only on the friendly edges of minefields.

Signs are painted in red and white on boards or pieces of sheet metal, and fastened to two stakes. The edges of minefields are marked with signs showing horizontal stripes.

Edges of lanes through the fields are shown by vertically divided signs with the white portion on the side of the lane, and the red portion on the side of the minefield (danger). The reverse side of the signs (the side toward the enemy) is painted olive drab. If red paint is not available, the Germans substitute black-and-white signs.

They are painted with the following words :

Minen - for mines

Gasse or Gassen - for mine lanes

Entmint - for an area cleared of mines.

Minefields are marked with vertical lettering, dummy minefields with slanting letters.

This distinction, however, is supposed to be made known only to the German engineer troops because other troops may divulge the location of dummy minefields by crossing them.

5. Mine Plans, Sketches, and Reports

A German mine plan shows one or more fields

in all necessary technical details. A German mine map, on the other hand, shows all mine obstacles within one front sector and their tactical significance, but without technical details.

The Germans use a number of different forms

for their reports and sketches, although all are based on the same principle. Figure 17 shows a very commonly used form. The upper third of the mine map form provides space for written specifications and a small situation sketch. The drawing is made on the blank space provided.

It is the engineers’ responsibility to draw up mine maps, and to keep them up to date. Additional remarks sometimes are placed on the back of the sheet.

a. DETAILS OF MINE MAP. The German mine

map usually shows the following details:

(1) Name of the obstacle and designation of

the unit which laid it.

(2) Name of the area in which the obstacle is

located.

(3) Grid reference and particulars of the map

sheet referred to.

(4) Obstacle shown in the little sketch in red.

(5) Date minefield was laid.

(6) Name and rank of officer or noncommis-

sioned officer in charge of laying field.

(7) Data of survey and instrument used (old

or new compass-German issue)

(8) Name and rank of officer or noncommis-

sioned officer in charge of survey.

b. MINE DATA IN MAP. The following data

are given on the mines:

(1) Number, type and igniter. (Example : 72 T-Mine with T-MZ. 42, booby-trapped.)

(2) Whether or not the mines are dug in.

(3) Number of rows, and number of mines

per row.

(4) Fence (Example : warning fence on friendly side.)

(5) Special features (Example : destroyed enemy tank in center, on enemy side.)

c. MINEFIELD-TYPE IDENTIFICATION IN MAP.

Colored lines drawn diagonally across the upper right-hand field of the mine map identify the type of the minefield as follows :

(1) A red diagonal line designates fields which cannot be cleared hecause some or all mines are booby-trapped.

(2) A yellow diagonal line designates fields

which can be cleared by using data from mine

document.

(3) A green diagonal line designates dummy

minefields.

(4) Mines taken up or exploded are marked

in red.

The number of the minefield plan and unit

designation appears on the upper right-hand corner of the sheet. Battalion, regiment, and division engineers make their notes in the space provided for them.

For S-Mines laid 50 meters (55 yards) from

the German lines, a note is made in red letters:

VORSICHT, NUR 50 METER ABSTAND!

(Caution, only 50 meters distance !)

In case electrical ignition is provided, a note is made showing how the igniters will be disposed of, if the unit which has laid the minefield is relieved.

d. INFORMATION IN MINEFIELD DRAWING.

The drawing of the minefield is made in the

blank space on the lower part of the sheet. The scale is from 1 :500 to 1 :2,000 whenever possible.

The following information is included :

(1) Shape and size of minefield.

(2) Pattern.

(3) Location of booby-trapped mines.

(4) Location of survey points with azimuth and distances.

(5) Type and location of warning fence.

(6) Location of the front lines and fortifications.

(7) Neighboring minefields, nline lanes, terrain features, special features.

The Germans believe that it is not necessary

to mark on the minefield drawing the location

of every single mine, if a partial drawing is sufficient. The German mine plans contain the detail symbols shown in Figure 18, while simple tactical signs are sufficient for minefield maps.

The Germans complete their mine plans at

company or battalion command posts, based on

sketches and data compiled while the field is being laid out. They make five copies of all mine plans and distribute them as follows:

One for engineer company which is in charge of the minefield; two for division ; one for army; one for central file in Dessau-Rosslau.

Changes in the minefield are recorded on the

back of the mine plan. After three changes a new mine plan is drawn.

A mine sketch is a simplified mine plan used

to transmit information on a minefield as rapidly as possible. It is not drawn to scale, and is drawn whenever the tactical situation, bad weather, or other circumstances prevent the preparation of

mine plans.

Front-line troops receive from the engineers

instructions or sketches showing the approximate location and extent of the minefield. These sketches, as a rule, do not contain details on types of mines or igniters, pattern, and survey points.

Engineer units in charge of minefields keep

records of changes in minefields under their care and keep these records with their units, while mine plans are turned over to the relieving units.

e. MINE REPORTS Armies generally designate

certain areas for fields of scattered mines. In this case mine reports take the place of mine plans. Normally, mine reports contain:

(1) Number of the order authorizing scattering of mines.

(2) Designation of units scattrring the mines.

(3) Name and number of field containing scattered mines.

(4) Map location of scattered minefield.

(5) Number of mints scattered, subdivided by types and igniters.

(6) Number and type of booby-trapped mines,

kind of booby trap.

[This message has been edited by M Hofbauer (edited 03-22-2001).]

[von Lucke]

Damn Hofbauer, but that sure was a passel 'o typing!

Strangely enough, I too modded-up exactly the same AP minefield marker you displayed --- except I used a more hand-written looking script and weathered the sign a bit more.

I like it because, a. It's technically correct, and b. You can see it's an AP mine marker from a distance.

What I don't like is that overlap of red on the "stake" holding up the sign. I've tried various fixes, and have yet to get it to go away.

[Kurtz]

Very interesting reading!

But this section made me confused. If there are mines (or booby traps, which for the purpose of the discussion should be treated as mines) the minefield should no longer qualify as a dummy minefield.

Originally posted by M Hofbauer:

German dummy minefields take various forms. /.../Dummy mines often are wired in and connected with booby traps.

------------------

SS-Weihnachtsgrenadiere

[Stefan Fredriksson]

Re: Kurtz - booby-trapped dummy-mines.

I think the point of this exercise is, should we say "double deception", or something.

First the Allies stumble onto what they believe to be a mine-field. They start to clear it, and find it consists of scrap and dummy mines. Get careless, or simply ignore clearing it.

Suddenly -Bom!- "S*it, the dummies are booby-trapped".

So, once again it has to be treated like a live mine-field. Which will work almost as good as a real one.

[Kurtz]

Yes, I can see the benefits of booby-trapping dummy mines but I do not think it should be called a dummy minefield.

A dummy minefield is a minefield without real mines. If you put real mines in it it is no longer a dummy minefield. But on the other hand, a real minefield can include dummy mines. Especially if the real mines can not be concealed properly.

I just wanted to make a distinction between the two types.

And speaking of dummy minefields, I really think they should be included in CM2. It's a way to force the enemy to either avoid the mines and go where the defender wants him to go or take a chance and go though the mines. Much like the daisy-chains but perhaps cheaper?

------------------

SS-Weihnachtsgrenadiere

[Olle Petersson]

Unfortunately the new mod doesn't say if it's AP or AT mines...

Historically this is correct since the minefields were (almost) always a mix.

Then I have a feeling the red colour isn't exactly correct shade. I'll try to reduce the green component a bit in it...

Cheers

Olle

[M Hofbauer]

von Lucke,

interesting to see you did the same one! But it shouldn't really be a surprise!

I didn't bother to weather it since all I wanted to do is give it a try (I incested no more than two minutes in Paintbrush for it). And yes I agree that way of doubling the sign image for the pole is very annoying.

And the main problems indeed are that it will a) be used for both kinds of minefields (unless you use it exclusively for one type and another type of sign for the other kind) and be used for allied minefields as well...

Kurtz yes you are right that technically it is not a dummy minefield. I think they wanted to make a differentiation regarding density.

Olle, why do you think the red is not right? Too bright? Mind you it was supposed to be bright, warning signal red, after all.

[Stefan Fredriksson]

Kurtz, it is all about definition.

If a minefield has only scrap, dummies and booby-traps, I would call it a dummy-minefield.

A booby-trap is a mine, yes. But you do not plant a *field* of booby-traps. And a few booby-traps in a dummy minefield does not make it into a mine-*field*.

I do know what you mean though, I'm just nit-picking.

(spelling-error corrected)

[This message has been edited by Stefan Fredriksson (edited 03-22-2001).]

[Olle Petersson]

Originally posted by M Hofbauer:

Olle, why do you think the red is not right? Too bright?

All other signs in Germany seem to have a red shade closer to blood red, the less oxygen saturated blueish tone, or wine red.

The one in the picture is closer to signal red.

Cheers

Olle

[M Hofbauer]

Originally posted by Olle Petersson:

All other signs in Germany seem to have a red shade closer to blood red, the less oxygen saturated blueish tone, or wine red.

(looks outside at the Vorfahrt achten! (yield!) sign)...uhm...(shakes head)...don't think so....

[Maximus]

OK, I stand corrected, but that still doesn't sound effective as the Germans still did lose the war. Maybe they shouldn't have posted WARNING signs and maybe they could have killed more of their enemies.

Like I said above, I don't ever recall seeing the VC mark their booby traps. Like "GI, no pick up suspicious toy." or "No step here, blow foot off."

------------------

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