Gunny Bunny Posted March 22, 2001 Share Posted March 22, 2001 Hello, I notice building have ground floor and top floor. Should building not have basement ?? This would be a nice place to hide ~~~ Seems realistic to me as well. Comments welcome. Gunny Bunny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Heinz 25th PzReg Posted March 22, 2001 Share Posted March 22, 2001 This have to be a must for CM2. Basements, trenches and foxholes should be modeled in the game as -1 height on the map. Today we have +1 height for 2nd storey buildings. Implementing a -1 height is an excellent way of solving this problem. Easy to model trenches in this way too I would guess. Just some thoughts for CM2. Heinz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest aaronb Posted March 22, 2001 Share Posted March 22, 2001 http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/Forum1/HTML/004082.html http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/Forum1/HTML/003022.html "buildings basements" ------------------ my armoured assets have about the half-life of a gnat in DDT - Germanboy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattias Posted March 22, 2001 Share Posted March 22, 2001 Yes the vast tactical importance of basements is something that really has been overlooked in CM. Many a battle was won or lost because fortune would see fit to place a good basement in the hands of one of the protagonists. My only fear is that the inclusion of realistic basements would unbalance the game. By placing all of his units down there a player could be certain to win the game, his offensive and defensive capabilities bolstered to an unrealistic level. After all, in the East a good basement was a rare thing (In fact many a historian has been of the opinion that the Germans lost the war because of this). In CM2 however, we might end up with "gamey" set-ups using first rate basements in all engagements, thereby unbalancing the game. On a related note. The Germans developed a special hand held one shot explosive devise called the "Erdgeschoss" specifically for anti basement purposes. However, as the poor housing conditions in the Soviet Union, and indeed often the complete lack of basements, prevented this threat from materialising it was subsequently dropped from the TO&E. M. [This message has been edited by Mattias (edited 03-21-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted March 22, 2001 Share Posted March 22, 2001 It has been pointed out that cellars are also a factor when tanks are allowed to move through buildings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeT Posted March 22, 2001 Share Posted March 22, 2001 OK, lets open up the can of worms. If you are going to factor in basements you must also consider factoring in sewer systems for large cities, think Stalingrad here. MikeT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonidas Posted March 22, 2001 Share Posted March 22, 2001 I'm not sure about historical accuracy, but I would think that basements could introduce a balanced option. After all, being in a basement means you can't see much, right? So I could see a massive defensive bonus, but no real offensive capability unless the enemy unit is in the house. It's always bothered me that troops in CM have no real opportunity to dig in hard under fire and limit their offensive capabilities to maximize their defensive capabilities. I would imagine that troops in the basement would be especially vulnerable to grenades and flamethrowers. And troops holed up in a basement probably wouldn't be too happy about the house above them being demolished - seem likely that they would either be sealed in or the ground floor would collapse and bring the house on top of them, with no room to run. OTOH, being in the basement would make you pretty much immune from arty, unless the house collapses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Leader Posted March 22, 2001 Share Posted March 22, 2001 We don't need basements -- we need interior walls! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest wwb_99 Posted March 22, 2001 Share Posted March 22, 2001 I would say that basements, like interior walls are modeled abstractly now. I think interior walls, especially, have little or no place in CM. They really do not matter unless you can break units down into fire teams. WWB ------------------ Before battle, my digital soldiers turn to me and say, Ave, Caesar! Morituri te salutamus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Andrew Hedges Posted March 22, 2001 Share Posted March 22, 2001 Don't forget that people stored alcoholic beverages in basements, which would lead to an approximately 1 in 6 chance that the units in the basement would become intoxicated and unable to fight. Intoxication should probably be a morale state, like Panic, Broken, or Routed, and the interface should have a Drunk or Drunk! marker, depending on the level of intoxication. For green troops, perhaps there should even be a Drunk!!! marker, to reflect their lack of experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rommel22 Posted March 22, 2001 Share Posted March 22, 2001 If BTS is doing the eastern front basements are a must!!! You got Stalingrad, that place had so meny freakin basements it's ubeliveble. You had sewers, pipes and all kind of under ground crap. The factories had pipes everywhere and sewers also. The workers settlement aslo had basements, maybe not every house but I am sure 1-5 or 1-10 buildings had a cellar or a basement. They were common on the western as well as eastern front. "-1 height" should be put in for sure. Or seperate terrain tiles for basements. Trenches are a must too!!! ------------------ Rommel22s Kampfgruppe site: http://rommel22diarys.homestead.com/MyPage1.html "I saw 5 Germans walking down the side of the road, so I followed them for a few yard to get closer. Then I shot them! Later that day I found out the war has been over for a few weeks." - someone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CATguy Posted March 22, 2001 Share Posted March 22, 2001 Sure give them basements so I can blow the building in with a 105 and bury the hapless souls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattias Posted March 22, 2001 Share Posted March 22, 2001 Andrew, Well spotted! However, you’ll have to keep in mind that CM2 will be located in the Soviet Union. The in the west oh so prevalent private wine cellars, were almost non existent. Aside from the occasional local party head quarter and of course major cities the availability would probably be confined to Vodka manufacturing plants. Perhaps some kind of random chance rule could be applied. Upon entering multi-hex buildings a roll of an unmodified “2” would mean that copious amounts of booze could be found, with a further sub-table listing the possible effects of the ensuing drinking. In this case I really think national modifiers would have to be applied since there is ample historical documentation of the Soviet drinking ability. However, a more wide spreads distribution of subterraneous alcohol depots would still be a matter to keep an eye on in the light of a retro upgrade of CM:BO M. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warmaker Posted March 22, 2001 Share Posted March 22, 2001 I wouldn't mind basements. But just to give a real example, I'll take the German Fallschirmjager's famous stand at Monte Cassino, Italy. The Allies after several failed assaults decided to utilize ALL Allied Airpower in the Mediterranean area to pulverize the Monte Cassino area, esp. the Monte Cassino Monastery itself. After this, hours of heavy artillery rained down on the German paratroops. Buildings crumbled, men would be buried and his comrades would have to dig him out, only to have him buried again a minute later. To be sure, some of the elite paratroops would break under these conditions but the Fallschirmjager remained. This became apparent to the numerically superior Allies (all of them, US, UK, etc.) as they approached German positions thinking no one would survive such a heavy attack. They were wrong. Fallschirmjager came out of the sellars/basements of ruined buildings and the Allies were met with a determined defense that sent their attack back@$$wards. It was said that facing the allied assault was more welcome then receiving the bombings and barrages. The ruins from these bombings also reduced many buildings to rubble which created additional cover and concealment for the defenders. To be sure, yes the FJ's did receive casualties from the bombings. And throughout this, they received almost nonexistent Panzer support from the Heer. German forces were stretched quite thin across Italy after losing Sicily. Got a good taste of Fallschirmjager history from this book I got, "Hitler's Sky Warriors" by Christopher Ailsby. ------------------ "Uncommon valor was a common virtue"-Adm.Chester Nimitz of the Marines on Iwo Jima [This message has been edited by Warmaker (edited 03-22-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skipper Posted March 22, 2001 Share Posted March 22, 2001 > In fact many a historian has been of the > opinion that the Germans lost the war > because of this ROFLMAO > Aside from the occasional local party head > quarter and of course major cities the > availability would probably be confined to > Vodka manufacturing plants. That's the most ridiculous biased opinion based on antisoviet propaganda claims! Drinking was always the main form of entertainment in Russia, especially in rural areas. According to soviet accounts, fascist occupants would always ask the local populace somewhere along the lines "matka, scnaps!" and be at least Drunk and sometimes Drunk! during combat operations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rex_Bellator Posted March 22, 2001 Share Posted March 22, 2001 I think you need to factor in the prescence or otherwise of handy Soviet armour in the scenario before deciding on the DRUNK! status. IMHO there should be a +1 modifier for every T-34 per platoon with a 50% chance that the T-34 will be unable to move as the fuel has been quaffed, unless there are more than 4 basements on the map which should apply a .33 dividing factor as ther may be ample moonshine available in there depending on the time of year when.... ------------------ In blossom today then scattered, life is so like a delicate flower, how can one expect the fragrance to last forever Vice Admiral Takijiro Ohnishi - Commander Kamikaze Special Attack Force Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattias Posted March 22, 2001 Share Posted March 22, 2001 Skipper, Far from being bought by western propaganda my point was that; precisely because of the Soviet drinking habits being what they were there would be nothing but water left behind the retreating red army. The only reason you would find it in the party head quarters or the factories was that the enormous amounts stored were impossible to bring along in the retreat. I believe your anecdote describes the situation exactly as it happened where the German soldiers would have to go from house to house vainly asking for even a minute sip of au de vie. All this for the lack of good and well stocked basements. M. [This message has been edited by Mattias (edited 03-22-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frenchy Posted March 22, 2001 Share Posted March 22, 2001 A real life basement story from the web site I maintain.... Pfc. Patrick Molinari, A/276, Bronze Star, In the town of Forbach, France, on or about February 22-23, 1945, Company A, Third Platoon under the leadership of T/Sgt. Steiner, was attempting to secure the town. We came across a large house that we thought was empty. Before entering the house a team of bazooka men, including myself, blew open the door. After entering someone from our team threw a grenade into the cellar. To our surprise, six or seven German soldiers came up the steps with hands held high. One or two of them were wounded by shrapnel and were taken away. When we descended the steps to the cellar to secure the house we found six or seven dishes containing hot red beans ready to be eaten. The Germans did not have a chance to eat their meal, so we finished it for them. Before leaving the house, we noticed that there were two machine guns stationed at the front and rear windows. Lucky for us that no one was on guard-duty or the ending of this story might have been different. ------------------ Webmaster http://www.trailblazersww2.org http://www.vmfa251.org Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rex_Bellator Posted March 23, 2001 Share Posted March 23, 2001 They had Beans in the cellars as well?? Obviously this will require the addition of a WIND! status as well as a DRUNK! status. Perhaps flamethrowers should receive a bonus when firing into the cellar? ------------------ In blossom today then scattered, life is so like a delicate flower, how can one expect the fragrance to last forever Vice Admiral Takijiro Ohnishi - Commander Kamikaze Special Attack Force Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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