"Gamey" is Good!

[Atlas]

My initial rant brewed from a ladder game I had a few hours before I wrote when somebody - after watching his entire force get smacked by a pair of Churchill VIIIs -cried "gamey."

Many months ago, the tilt on this board was definitely "anti-gamey". Now it seems that the majority are of the opinion that all is fair as long as both parties agree, which IMHO is the correct position. The only argument remains: What if NOTHING is said? I think we should all agree that when no ground rules are specified, then anything goes (including using "historically improbable" mixes of troops.) The onus is on the person who is insulted when encountering troop mixes and tactics he believes to be "unfair" to stipulate the grounds rules. Cheers and peace to all those my initial post pissed off.

[aka_tom_w]

Originally posted by Atlas:

My initial rant brewed from a ladder game I had a few hours before I wrote when somebody - after watching his entire force get smacked by a pair of Churchill VIIIs -cried "gamey."

Many months ago, the tilt on this board was definitely "anti-gamey". Now it seems that the majority are of the opinion that all is fair as long as both parties agree, which IMHO is the correct position. The only argument remains: What if NOTHING is said? I think we should all agree that when no ground rules are specified, then anything goes (including using "historically improbable" mixes of troops.) The onus is on the person who is insulted when encountering troop mixes and tactics he believes to be "unfair" to stipulate the grounds rules. Cheers and peace to all those my initial post pissed off.

I am in complete agreement.

I the absense of any "gentleman's" agreement

I presume the battle to be no-holds-barred do ANYTHING you can to win, anything goes.

But I am always open to discussing any proposed ground rules or gentleman's agreements.

comments?

-tom w

[DeadHorse]

Stop Beating Me

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You ain't smelled nothing until you smelled a Dead Horse rotting in the sun. -- Somebody

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by aka_tom_w:

But I am always open to discussing any proposed ground rules or gentleman's agreements.

comments?

-tom w

If the designers had intended for 75/76 mm rules, or for players like Babra ( ) to be prevented from retiring from the map when getting beat on, they would have incorporated it into the rules/game engine.

This whole argument about what is "gamey" or not is akin to the angels on the head of a pin argument. A Quick Battle, by definition, is "gamey." (Come to that, Combat Mission as a whole, by definition, is "gamey.")

Anybody who complains about ahistorical force mixes is advised to play only historical battles/operations - there are hundreds of them out there on the internet.

Anyone, on the other hand, selecting the Quick Battle option has just made the choice of playing a "gamey" game, and therefore has no kick coming when it comes to the force selection or terrain. How can you expect realism when you've opted for fiction? It's like buying an Alastair Maclean novel, and wondering why it doesn't have footnotes and references listed in the back, or why you can't find "Navarone" listed in the Encyclopedia.

You are both correct in that any "gentleman's agreements" need to be mutually discussed beforehand. As stated in my original response, CM is all things to all people. That's a good thing. But it seems like certain people need to keep that a little more firmly in mind (like the opponent who hollered "gamey" at the Churchills).

[PawBroon]

Originally posted by Elijah Meeks:

Actually Panzer, it was not Leonidas who spoke that line but rather some guy who's name eludes me right now but begins with a 'D'. And Xerxes never saw Leonidas until his body was brought to him and chopped into bits.

The guy was supposed to be Dienekes.

Go read Gates of Fire from Steven Pressfield (SP?)for an enjoyable read.

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You are not Obsessive-CMpulsive, you are Allied-Retentive.

Mark IV

[Dr. Brian]

Originally posted by Elijah Meeks:

we're looking for something a bit more realistic.

That's your opinion. Not mine. You don't speak for all of us.

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Doc

God Bless Chesty Puller, Wherever He Is!

[RenoFlame 36]

"Playing the System" was a problem with combat simulations from day one. I saw the same arguments about board games. You can either play for fun or for blood. There will always be players who can't enjoy the past time without taking advantage of all the loop holes.

[CavScout]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

If the designers had intended for 75/76 mm rules, or for players like Babra to be prevented from retiring from the map when getting beat on, they would have incorporated it into the rules/game engine.

Or they failed to grasp how far some players would go.

This whole argument about what is "gamey" or not is akin to the angels on the head of a pin argument. A Quick Battle, by definition, is "gamey." (Come to that, Combat Mission as a whole, by definition, is "gamey.")

This is silly. Nothing more than being given an inch and wanting to take the mile.

[CavScout]

Originally posted by RenoFlame 36:

"Playing the System" was a problem with combat simulations from day one. I saw the same arguments about board games. You can either play for fun or for blood. There will always be players who can't enjoy the past time without taking advantage of all the loop holes.

On Point and on target. FFE.

Cav

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"Maneuverists have a bad case of what may be called, to borrow from a sister social science, "'Wehrmact penis envy.'"--D. Bolger

Co-Chairman of the CM Jihad Brigade

Founder of the CMers who like playing the Allies Club

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by RenoFlame 36:

"Playing the System" was a problem with combat simulations from day one. I saw the same arguments about board games. You can either play for fun or for blood. There will always be players who can't enjoy the past time without taking advantage of all the loop holes.

I don't particularly care for that kind of player, but you can't deny it's their right, and I'm not so sure they should be looked down on (I'm not saying that's what you're doing). Look at the guys who have written books on how to play Las Vegas blackjack - they take it a lot more seriously than others who simply go there knowing they will lose their money anyway, but are going to have fun doing it. To each his own. I still say CM has done more to prevent "gamey" play than most if not all other combat games to date. The smoke grenade issue alone is kind of staggering, I mean, it was de rigeur for Squad Leader/ASL and CC players though one never read of it being used tactically by infantry. BTS finally got it right. There are other "tricks" that don't work completely or at all in CM, like burning terrain on purpose, abandoning trucks deliberately to slow down enemy vehicles.