The Latest in a series of ill-fated British TO&E threads: The Lanchester SMG

[Fairbairn-Sykes]

[Asbestos Suit]

The Lanchester

<UL TYPE=SQUARE><LI>9mm Parabellum Cartridge

<LI>575-600 rounds per minute

<LI>50 round detachable box magazine

<LI>Length: 751mm / 200mm Barrel

<LI>Weight Empty: 4.3 kg

<LI>Production 1940-42

Fundamentally, a tribute to the classic German MP28 (the true Schmeisser), issued to Royal Marines, Commandos, Naval personnel & Airborne troops before the Sten replaced it. Too expensive to maintain, production of the weapon ceased in 1942. It was used at such famous Commando raids as Lofoten, Vaagsoy, Bruneval & St. Nazaire.

Although CM3 is far off, I hope to see this SMG in the British TO&E (perhaps with rarity factored in...)

And what of the Patchett?

[/Asbestos Suit]

[ 09-17-2001: Message edited by: Fairbairn-Sykes Trench Knife ]

[Michael Dorosh]

How is this weapon any different from a Sten in game terms?

[MrSpkr]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

How is this weapon any different from a Sten in game terms?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

OBVIOUSLY, it looks cooler 'cuz it has a bayonet.

Sheesh. Silly Canucks.

[Fairbairn-Sykes]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

in game terms?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's not any different, of course - just having a bit of fun with the Holy sacrament of the SMG...

Have any of you Commonwealth grogs fired a Lanchester? Know of any action photos that feature it?

It's difficult to find many anecdotes or war yarns specifically about this weapon.

[ 09-18-2001: Message edited by: Fairbairn-Sykes Trench Knife ]

[Fairbairn-Sykes]

*Cough*...

[pitiful cry for discussion]

can't Username even make an appearance to ridicule me? i've already done the groundwork - by simply posting...

[CMplayer]

For all it will help you, your lads might as well be equipped like this:

[Username]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fairbairn-Sykes Trench Knife:

*Cough*...

[pitiful cry for discussion]

can't Username even make an appearance to ridicule me? i've already done the groundwork - by simply posting...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Too busy snickering. Dont want to piss off the brits anyway. Might need them soon enough, crappy infantry weapons or not!

Lewis

[Fairbairn-Sykes]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Username:

Too busy snickering. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Excellent. You're back in fine form... It just took me a moment to realize that not even you would waste time on this non-topic... Oh wait.. you just did.

[Fairbairn-Sykes]

Seriously,

I know this weapon really isn't of interest to many on this Forum, I realize it has no relevance to CM:BB, and I am aware that CM3 is years away - yet, I have a sincere interest in any information that the chorus of Commonwealth grogs assembled here might be able to provide me. I feel that some genuine discourse on the lesser-known British SMGs of WWII could be interesting. I've done a fair amount of research on the Lanchester - it's difficult to find battle stories or any anecdotes about this gun. Surely someone has links, recommended reading or some war yarns concerning the Lanchester. Thanks.

By the way, I've read that its practical range was significantly longer than the MP40, Tommygun & Sten.

[Michael Dorosh]

You may want to post at my British and Canadian Re-enactment Forum

Perhaps someone there can help you?

[Fairbairn-Sykes]

Thanks Michael,

I got your email regarding that forum as well, so - I'll give it a shot.

What say you about claims that the Lanchester had a longer effective range than several other SMGs of the war (from an SMG web page)?

[Dan Robertson]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fairbairn-Sykes Trench Knife:

What say you about claims that the Lanchester had a longer effective range than several other SMGs of the war (from an SMG web page)?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It has a nice study stock and heavy weight. I would suspect that a combat shooter would find this easier to shoot with than a lump of iron with a metal stick rivetted to it, like the sten gun

[Kim Beazley MP Ma]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dan Robertson:

It has a nice study stock and heavy weight. I would suspect that a combat shooter would find this easier to shoot with than a lump of iron with a metal stick rivetted to it, like the sten gun<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That, plus a well-made barrel (instead of one barely machined) and good sights might have increased its effective range to about 250 metres. Even at that range, the stopping power of the round would be fairly dubious - there were numerous examples of PLA troops in Korea surviving close range hits from multiple 9mm rounds when wearing heavy, quilted coats during the winters there.

[Kim Beazley MP Ma]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>

But what of the Patchett?

[ 09-17-2001: Message edited by: Fairbairn-Sykes Trench Knife ][/qb]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why stop there? The Owen

and the Austen should perhaps also be included:

Interestingly, the Owen, while popular with the diggers was fought most voriously against by the military heirachy who much preferred the adoption of the Sten (hence the development of the Austen - AUStralian sTEN) for most of the war.

Even more interestingly, while the Owen was a private design and development and was perhaps one of the most reliable SMG's ever produced, the Austen was the reverse - military designed and very unreliable. Which is why, despite many thousands being produced, it was usually given over to second-line forces, such as the RAAF or native auxillaries, such as the PIB:

Then almost complete scrapped as quickly as possible.

[ 09-18-2001: Message edited by: Kim Beazley MP Ma ]

[Fairbairn-Sykes]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kim Beazley MP Ma:

Why stop there? The Owen and the Austen should perhaps also be included...

Interestingly, the Owen, while popular with the diggers was fought most voriously against by the military heirachy who much preferred the adoption of the Sten (hence the development of the Austen - AUStralian sTEN) for most of the war.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Informative post on digger SMGs. Thanks. I've read some about the Owen & Austen, yet know little of their usage (which units/battles). I know that they came about after the North African & Aegean Theatres were pretty well sewed up... Primarily Burma/China/SW Pac. Islands?

I know that the MP28 (the basis for the Lanchester) was prized by the Waffen SS for its excellent craftsmanship (they even took over production after April 1940)...

The following excerpted from Waffen-SS Soldier 1940-1945 (Osprey Military History/Chief Editor C. Gravett c.2001):

However, the Waffen-SS preferred the old MP28 to the more modern designs because of its superior manufacturing quality and because its magazine slotted into the side of the receiver instead of underneath it. This meant it could be fired from the prone position much more easily.

I assume that the Lanchester & Patchett would follow suit.

[Kim Beazley MP Ma]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fairbairn-Sykes Trench Knife:

Informative post on digger SMGs. Thanks.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Anytime, I always try and inform.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>

I've read some about the Owen & Austen, yet know little of their usage (which units/battles). I know that they came about after the North African & Aegean Theatres were pretty well sewed up... Primarily Burma/China/SW Pac. Islands?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, I'd have said definitly not Burma, as no Australian forces served there, except that I came across, in my search for those photos one of an Australian serving with the RAF in that theatre showing him carrying one. I am aware that some numbers were exported to Burma for use by the British but I'm unaware if they were used. Ditto for China, for the Chinese - Owens also were shipped there, as well.

The Owen has a very interesting history and was almost never built, both because of circumstance and official interference. The designer, who had built his first prototype in his father's garden shed was called up and when on leave returned home and took it out to shoot one day. On his way home, he had to run an errand and left the weapon, wrapped in a sack, hidden in the driveway of a suburban house. Turned out the house was owned by the General Manager of the Lysacht steelworks who discovered it. When it was demonstrated to him he enthusiastically took up the cause, had the designer seconded to his factory and badged the government and the military into trying the weapon and then adopting it.

It was shown to be considerably more reliable than either the MP-40 or the Sten, against which it was trialled, being far less prone to stoppages and able to survive treatment which would have rendered the other two weapons useless - including burning and immersion for weeks in mud.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>

I know that the MP28 (the basis for the Lanchester) was prized by the Waffen SS for its excellent craftsmanship (they even took over production after April 1940)...

The following excerpted from Waffen-SS Soldier 1940-1945 (Osprey Military History/Chief Editor C. Gravett c.2001):

However, the Waffen-SS preferred the old MP28 to the more modern designs because of its superior manufacturing quality and because its magazine slotted into the side of the receiver instead of underneath it. This meant it could be fired from the prone position much more easily.

I assume that the Lanchester & Patchett would follow suit.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm aware the the Lanchester was abandoned because it was simply far too expensive to manufacture, being precision made and utilising Bronze and other naval materials in it.

I was under the impression that while the Patchett was better than the Sten it arrived too late to see widespread service and was ultimately developed into the Sterling. It was definitely better than the collection of weird weapons I've seen in various books which never progressed beyond the prototype stage to replace the Sten.

[Soddball]

Those guns look really :cool: I want one.

[Fairbairn-Sykes]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Soddball:

Those guns look really :cool: I want one.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, especially the Patchett with bayonet fixed. I've got several pictures of Waffen SS firing the MP28(looks almost identical to Lanchester) - they make it look very stylish.