2nd Canadian Infantry

[Johnno]

I'm having problems with an operation I'm doing for CM which happens in around Sept 7, 44 with the 2nd Canadian Infantry. I've been searching for hours for some decent historical maps and descriptions of the conflict at this time between the 2nd Canadian Infantry and the German 84th Infantry. So if anyone has a resource that they can supply me to better study and make the battle at least somewhat historical please send it my way.

Johnno

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Dogs of War Battle Prayer

Praise be to the Lord, my Rock, who trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle.

He is my loving God and my fortress, my stronghold and my deliverer, my shield in which I take refuge, who subdues people under me.

psalm 144

[Michael Dorosh]

Which regiments?

http://members.home.net/canuckmain/

[Johnno]

Been to your webpage already in my search Michael...thought you might answer. I have the board game 'Panzer Leader' and one of the scenarios is called "The Reichswald." That scenario gave me the idea to make or recreate what I thought was a historical battle between the 2nd Canadian Infantry and the 84th German Infantry Division; it might not be historical though it doesn't say.

I found one link that described the weather at this time for Sept 44 and it was heavy rain.

Johnno

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Dogs of War Battle Prayer

Praise be to the Lord, my Rock, who trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle.

He is my loving God and my fortress, my stronghold and my deliverer, my shield in which I take refuge, who subdues people under me.

psalm 144

[Michael Dorosh]

The Reichswald battles weren't until February 1945, part of Operation Veritable, and the last battles west of the River Rhine in preparation for the crossings in March. I am talking to a fellow in Germany who is sending me some topo maps of the XANTEN area, where Second Division fought in Feb/Mar 45. Once I get some more info I can pass it your way. I believe there is a scenario at Appui-Feu (or possibly it was at CMHQ) that depicts some of this fighting.

September saw the Second Div still in France/Belgium, I believe around the channel ports, so the date is in error.

A search for 84th Division in my copy of Stacey shows that they were indeed "shattered" in the Veritable fighting in Feb 45.

As I recall, Panzer Leader had geomorphic maps which would not have been specific to the Reichswald fighting. There is some good info in Rhineland by Whitaker. If you posted some more info from the Panzer Leader scenario card, maybe I can determine what they (and you) had in mind with regards to which aspects of the battle you wanted portrayed. Like most of the fighting Canadian infantrymen saw in this period, it was a hard slog. Off hand, I know the Calgary Highlanders (whose history I know best) had to fight through heavily forested, wet and muddy terrain, through large enemy minefields. Third Division alongside fared no better - both Divisions won Victoria Crosses in the fighting (Fred Tilston from the Essex Scottish, who lost an eye and a leg but lived, and Aubrey Cosens from the Queen's Own Rifles, who was shot through the head and killed).

[jasoncawley@ameritech.net]

German 84th Infantry division was in 15th Army reserve on D-Day. It did not fight in Normandy. That fits with a deployment in the Pas de Calais area - the 15th Army sector was Le Harve and northeast on D-Day, and moved farther northeast, to the channel ports (Boulogne, Calais, Dunkirk) soon after, giving up the Le Havre area to front-line armies.

At the time you mention, the Canadian 2nd Infantry division was attacking north toward the French coast around Calais. After isolating the garrisons of the channel ports, the 2nd turned over the job of containing and reducing the fortifications to the Canadian 3rd Infantry division (mid September), and moved on to the Scheldt (the waterway leading to Antwerp). The overall goal at the time was to secure ports, with elimination of the V-1 launch sites as a byproduct. The following is a Canadian narrative of the time period -

"The 2nd Canadian Infantry Division also began its forward move on September 6. Its task was to clear the whole coastal area east of Calais including the heavily fortified port of Dunkirk.

On September 7-8 its 5th Brigade captured Bourbourg, south-west of Dunkirk, and was then tasked to contain the Dunkirk garrison, estimated to be some 10,000 strong, which held a wide perimeter of outposts in the villages of Mardick, Loon-Plage, Spyker, Bergues and Bray Dunes. Loon-Plage was occupied on September 9, simultaneously with nearby Coppenaxfort; Mardick fell on September 17.

East of Dunkirk, in the area of the Franco-Belgian border, the 6th Brigade occupied Furnes, Nieuport and La Panne. The Canadians received great assistance from the Belgian White Brigade, the national resistance movement, which furnished exact information concerning the enemy's strength, defences and minefields. West of LaPanne, the brigade cleared the area of Bray Dunes as well as the nearby village of Ghyvelde.

The 4th Brigade, on September 9, moved north to occupy the Belgian port of Ostend. This port, although fortified, was not defended by the Germans. However, the harbour installations had been partly demolished and delayed its opening. From September 28, pending the opening of Antwerp, stores and bulk petrol flowed through Ostend to alleviate the maintenance problem.

The 4th Bridgade then moved to the southern outskirts of Bruges to assist the 4th Armoured Division in that sector. Fortunately, the enemy withdrew without contesting possession of the city, and the Canadians entered the city to an enthusiastic welcome from the people.

The brigade now turned south again to Bergues, a key feature of Dunkirk's outer defences, which was finally occupied on September 16.

But the enemy showed no sign of relaxing his grip on Dunkirk and the port could only have been taken by a major attack with heavy support. The decision was, therefore, taken to simply contain the port with minimum forces and to concentrate every available resource upon opening Antwerp. This freed the 2nd Canadian Infantry Division to move to the Scheldt area at once.

During the month of September the 3rd Canadian Infantry Division was fully occupied in clearing the Channel Ports, Boulogne, and Calais, and eliminating the enemy's cross-channel batteries at Cap Gris Nez. As well, it eliminated the flying-bomb sites from which the enemy had bombarded south-eastern England - London in particular.

Unfortunately the Germans had determined to maintain the Channel Ports at all costs. These ports were designated fortresses to be especially protected and defended to the last. LeHavre, Boulogne and Calais were taken only after massive attacks combining air and ground assaults. Further, the port installations were destroyed and although the ports were in Canadian hands they were not yet working. On October 1 the only harbours north of the Seine receiving Allied shipping were Dieppe, its subsidiary Le Tréport, and Ostend."

Incidentally, the name of the Panzer Leader scenario may refer to a UK war memorial and cemetery located at Reichswald, which was the later site of a forest battle that Canadians were involved in. But that is not where the 2nd was fighting on 7 September. The fighting in the Reichswald area was during Operation Veritable, in mid-February 1945. On that occasion, the 2nd Infantry seems to have fought units of Panzer Lehr and 116th Panzer (or what was left of them post-Bulge) - I do not know if they fought the 84th Infantry then too, or what. The Reichswald fighting, incidentally, was some of the toughest the Canadians had.

It is not clear which fight the scenario is trying to depict. But the February 1945 fighting may be more likely, rather than the date you actually have.

I hope this helps.

[This message has been edited by jasoncawley@ameritech.net (edited 04-02-2001).]

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by jasoncawley@ameritech.net:

The Reichswald fighting, incidentally, was some of the toughest the Canadians had.

Why do you say this?

[Johnno]

Hey Jason many of my searches came up with references to the war memorial of the fighting in the Reichswald Forest. I think I'll start to concentrate my search on Feb 45 instead of Sept 44; Panzer leader must have screwed up.

Apparently the war memorial is in Normandy near the location that the Canadians were at the time of September 44. So I suppose this was a screw up for Avalon Hill. I still would like to do this scenario for Feb 45 could anyone mail me a link for maps of the area in question. I did searches for the Reichswald Forest with no luck.

Johnno

[Johnno]

Oh; and thanks for the above posts and thanks in advance if you post a link or send me one guys.

Try my operation I made if you feel ambitious it's on my website in the download section and is called the "Cliffs of St.Athan." It's not historic if this a important factor to you but does model somewhat of the proper forces at the time of Operation Goodwood near the Drome River south of Caen. So far I've gotten lots of good feedback on it.

I would just love to make a scenario that is very fun but also models proper or somewhat accurate forces, map and situation.

Johnno

[Michael Dorosh]

Avalon Hill made a lot of screwups. They had one SL scenario showing an airlanding by men of the "SS Deutschland" regiment, for example, when the actual historical forces involved were a battalion of the Grossdeutschland Regiment from the Heer. Two entirely seperate forces. Everyone makes mistakes, I guess.

You need to put the link to your website in your sig, so we can find your scenarios!

The maps of XANTEN should cover exactly the area you're looking for; maybe I can make scans or photocopies of them for you. You should probably get a copy of Rhineland or the official histories by C.P. Stacey and try and narrow down your focus to one brigade or one battalion of the Second Division.

[jasoncawley@ameritech.net]

I say it because I have seen reports that the 1st Canadian Army took over 15,000 causalties there, in the space of ~3 weeks. That is a quite large causalty toll, around 2/3rds what the U.S. went through in the Hurtgen. Tough terrain, prepared defenses, muddy thaw, local German counterattacks with armor. Doesn't take much to see it must have been pretty hard fighting.

[Michael Dorosh]

But you do realize that First Canadian Army was composed of more than just Canadians, yes? How many of those 15,000 were Americans, British, Poles, etc.? I can't remember offhand - were 4th Armoured Div or 2nd Armoured Brigade even employed in the Rhineland fighting? They made up about 1/3 of the "Canadians" fighting in NW Europe.

I don't think the Rhineland fighting was any worse than, say, Operation Spring or the Scheldt. Really, one is best to avoid hyperbole since every battle in WW II was

a) bloody awful for those that fought there

the "worst" or "toughest" or "bloodiest" according to whatever popular history has been written about it

I would venture to say that Hong Kong (where 100 percent of the 1973 Canadian soldiers that fought there became casualties), Dieppe (single bloodiest day), Spring (one battalion sent 325 men up Verrierres Ridge - 15 came back) were as tough - not to mention the Moro River (1st Div lost 50% of its infantry in this campaign), or even the Riccio where the newly arrived 11th CIB got its ass handed to it.

No doubt the Reichswald was a tough nut, but in my opinion shouldn't be placed above the others - the Canadian Army routinely fought over appalling terrain (Third Division were called The Water Rats for just that reason) and unfortunately the Rhineland was no exception to a long list of difficult operations.

It's like saying Tarawa saw the toughest fighting in the Pacific. No doubt the landings were a bloody nightmare, but is there any way to compare Tarawa to Peleliu to Iwo Jima to Bataan to Edson's Ridge to etc.?

[Johnno]

I thought a link was in my profile sig. but I forgot to put it there. I'll do a search today of Xanten, I'm not about to buy books and maps to make a scenario but I'll certainly look for a book from C.P Stacey next time I go to the bookstore. I live on the westcoast of Canada near Vancouver how about you guys?

Re/ the scenario I already have it pretty much underway and did a test last night and it's quite fun. I'd just like to better model some of the terrain and the situtaion for the briefing and storyline.

JohnnoDogs of War Online PLayers Club

[This message has been edited by Johnno (edited 04-02-2001).]

[Michael Dorosh]

Library cards work good, too.

If you live near a large city, University libraries are great places. I live in Calgary, and the U of C has tons (literally) of excellent references including just about every regimental history written on WW II Canadian units. A day in a Vancouver public library would yield great dividends for you.

[Johnno]

That is a very good point, if I want to do some studying I should use the town library. We have a very good library at the college in my town also.

Johnno

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Dogs of War Online Players Club

D.O.W Battle Prayer

Praise be to the Lord, my Rock, who trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle.

He is my loving God and my fortress, my stronghold and my deliverer, my shield in which I take refuge, who subdues people under me.

-psalm 144

(Jackson's Prayer from S.P.R)

[Keith]

You need to get your hands on a book called "Tug of War" by Denis Whitaker. It is about the Canadian army's battles to open the port of Antwerp and the Scheldt waterways. The book was just republished in 2000 and is available form Aamazon.com.

Of course if you want super detailed maps you need to get a Michelen Road map of the area. These maps have terrain features and vegetation.

[jasoncawley@ameritech.net]

To Mr. Dorosoh -

If the period in question even remotely deserves to be mentioned in the same general context as the other examples you gave, then my initial statement is true - "one of..." If you want to claim that it is simply untrue, then by all means do so, and present an argument to that effect. But it seems to me you are merely saying "I wouldn't have said that", and perhaps another misreading of a qualified statement (dropping "one of", etc).

I realize that you hate numbers in history, but this is getting pretty silly. Now you want to ban comparative statements. Next it will be adjectives and adverbs. Then perhaps, the crusade against the indirect object. In the end, canonically approved descriptions of history will be "see spot run". As though anyone asked you to provide such canons anyway.

Moreover, it is obvious enough that it doesn't have to do with comparative statements, but statements by me, which is even sillier. Since you don't seem to be able to give it a rest, I suggest that in the future you ignore my comments and do not react to them at all.

I can assure you I am not interested in your advice on the use or non-use of either numbers or comparatives, or adjectives or indirect objects, in writing history. I don't care what you would or wouldn't have said, and you needn't worry about anyone getting what you'd say, and what I'd say, confused.

I thought that the fellow here had a fine and interesting question, and you provided useful information in response to it. Why you choose to turn that success into quibbling with me about what "one of" means, or what-not, is beyond me.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Keith:

Of course if you want super detailed maps you need to get a Michelen Road map of the area. These maps have terrain features and vegetation.

Tug of War is a great book, but only covers the period of the Scheldt fighting; the Rhineland fighting is covered by Whitaker's other book "Rhineland" and deals with the fighting in February and March 1945.

There was a fellow in the scenarios forum offering to get 1:25000 scale maps of Europe for people, but I emailed him and have yet to get a response.

EDIT - another book worth looking at is THE LONG LEFT FLANK by Jeffrey Williams. The maps are all from the official history, but it tells the story of the fighting from the end of the Normandy Campaign to VE Day quite well and in a readable format.

[This message has been edited by Michael Dorosh (edited 04-02-2001).]

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by jasoncawley@ameritech.net:

To Mr. Dorosoh - etc.

I read your comment about Veritable being "one of the toughest" operations the Canadians fought and thought this comment indicated that you had further insights to share; however, all you offered in the way of justification for your comment was a vague number of casualties that may or may not have applied to the Canadians. My apologies for the confusion; I misunderstood the comment to mean you add something significant to say about the fighting there.

[kford]

I have been working on a similar scenario involving the Canadian Algonquin Regiment, 10th Bde, 4th Canadian AD, 16 September 1944. I was in Belgium last fall and had the story of the battle related to me by one of Brenda's relatives. The fights across the canals were really nasty and seeing the one involved in this battle, I can believe it. The canals near Moerkerke are actually two parallel canals that are about 15 meters across with a 10 meter strip of land in the center. Of course the Germans had destroyed all the bridges and flooded the canals. It also had rained heavily making these things tough as heck to cross even without an entrenched enemy on the other side.

Man that has to have been tough. I'm still working on the balance in the scenario. The battle I've mocked out is a Canadian battalion vs. a reinforced German company. Its been hard to play test against the computer because it is just too stupid to put forth any kind of intelligent attack (come on, lay down the arty, suppressive fire, then cross, no you just want to send two squads at a time while the rest of your force mills about...grrrr).

Thanks,

Kevin

[Keith]

Kevin, you should just make the scenario playable from the Allied side or PBEM. As you are finding out there are limits to what the AI can handle. Generally speaking, the AI can only attack successfully if there is good terrain with accessable waypoints (objective flags). In your intro breifing mention that the scenario should be played from one side or PBEM.

From what I have read the Germans dug in on the forward and reverse slopes of the canals, sometimes with concrete bunkers. The polders should be modeled as swamp hexes since they were flooded.

Also at this time of the war the Canadians replacement system was completely broken down due to political reasons. They were throwing guys in the line who did not even know how to clean their weapons or had seen a PIAT before. A real tragedy.

[Michael Dorosh]

The reinforcement crisis didn't peak until October, during the Scheldt fighting, but you are correct in that untrained soldiers were being put into the infantry. I wouldn't call the system completely broken down, however, as there were one or two soldiers trained as infantry in the pipeline, also. The trouble was no one could predict the infantry casualties that would occur in Normandy. There were plenty of trained infantrymen in Canada - the Zombies - but until the government had the guts to send them overseas in February 1945, they simply weren't volunteering for action.

Kevin please keep us updated on your battle concerning the Algoons; if you are looking for a home for it, I would be pleased if you considered my website as one host. I'll bet you have some great photos of the area as well taken during your trip there, yes?

Is this one of the battles mentioned in the South Alberta's history?

Keith makes some good points and gives some good tips. I'd also try and break it down into a company or two company sized attack - so many designers feel the need to make battalion-level battles, myself included - but there is a dearth of decent, historical, company level actions involving Canadians. Yours would be a welcome addition to the mix.

If you require playtesters, feel free to email me.

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CANUCK: Clothing, Equipping and Employing the Canadian Soldier in Combat Mission

[Panzer Leader]

Hey, slightly OT, but a quick question: where and when was the very first action Canadians faced in WW2?

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Panzer Leader:

Hey, slightly OT, but a quick question: where and when was the very first action Canadians faced in WW2?

First combat action was at Hong Kong - December 1941.

There were troops sent to the island of Spitsbergen in 1941 also, to seize a coal mine and (IIRC) weather station. There was no resistance there. The Carleton and York Regiment sent men to a commando raid on Hardelot also, but they turned back without touching shore.

Parts of the 1st Brigade landed in France (AFTER the fall of Dunkirk) during the German invasion, and moved inland, but they were withdrawn before making contact - 6 were left behind, 1 dead in a m/c accident, one prisoner, and the others made it back to the UK on their own.

In Europe, Canadians and Americans both saw ground combat first at Dieppe - 50 Rangers landed with the Canadians and British Commandos. After that, Sicily was the next major operation.

Individual Canadians gained battle experience with the British Army in North Africa, also, then transferred back to the Canadian Army.

[IPA]

Slightly off topic, but I just wanted to mention CANLOANS.

British Infantry Divisions preparing for Normandy were short of Junior Officers, whereas the Canadian Army had a surplas at the time. Under the CANLOAN scheme 623 Canadian Officers served in British units nearly all at platoon level. 3/4 of these became casualties - 128 killed, 310 wounded and 27 taken prisoner. I also gather that British troops preferred their Canadian officers as they were not as "Regimental" as their British counterparts.

At The Going Down Of The Sun,

And In The Morning,

We Will Remember Them....

Peter

[Michael Dorosh]

The book Codeword: CANLOAN is highly recommended - it gives not only a great history of Canloan officers, but also really great descriptions of just what a platoon commander did.

Many Canloans went on to command companies, and many earned decorations including several MCs.