IS-3--Were they there?

[Commissar]

I remember playing CC3 in "The Dark Ages" (that's pre-CM) and there seemed to be this debate about whether the IS-3 was able to be deployed out in the field soon enough for it to see some action before the war ended. Does anyone know if that debate ever was settled (assuming a debate ever existed)? Also, how did the Pershing or Super Pershing stand against the IS-2? I don't recall them ever going against each other in combat but I am curious to know if there is any tests done to compare how these two would fare against each other in a "Patton's Dream" scenario.

[gunnergoz]

IS-3's did not see combat during WW2. As it turned out, the design's execution had serious defects: the enormous welds holding together the hull nose glacis plates tended to crack in service. IS-3's were sidelined for a long time while repairs and fixes were devised.

The tank, though beautiful and sinister-looking as hell, never had performance to match, except in the area of armor toughness once the weld problems were licked.

It's only known combat service was with the Egyptians, in particular during the 1973 war. The Israelis found out that their Pattons and Centurions had a difficult time with the IS-3's thick frontal armor. Their infantry AT weapons were also inadequate. The solution was made after the Israeli's discovered how ponderous the IS-3 was attempting to manouver on the battlefield and also that it's turret was very slow to traverse. The Israeli's manouvered their speedier MBT's for flank shots and took out the IS-3's that way.

BTW, Stalin had an IS-3 armed tank corps ready to intervene in the Korean War on the side of the Chinese Communists. Only the threat of a nuclear counterpunch from the US deterred Stalin. Still, it would be interesting to see how US armor (then composed of M-26's and M-46's in Korea and M-47's coming into service in Europe) would have fared against a Soviet tank corps. My guess is that the severely constricted mountainous terrain of Korea would have canalized the Soviet armor into massive kill zones for US airpower. If any reached the front lines, however, we'd have had hell to pay trying to knock the IS-3's out frontally if we couldn't manouver due to the terrain.

[Forever Babra]

They are indeed a fearsome-looking beast. I have no sources to cite, but I seem to recollect that, as mentioned, none saw action in WW2.

I believe their true value is that they could rightly be considered the first of the modern MBTs. Even with only 28(?) rounds on board, that monster cannon is nothing to sneeze at. Not an exploitation vehicle, but a real monster in 1945.

[Commissar]

I remember reading about how the IS-2 actually was around longer than both the IS-3 and IS-4. Must been quite a tank. Can't wait to use them in CM2.

[CRSutton]

I traversed the canal in the mid 1970s right after it was reopened. (It was closed for a few years after the 73 war). The Egyptian army's front lines were on the Egypt side of the canal and I saw quite a showcase of vintage Russian vehicles. Lots of the SU 100, 122 and 155 types and a few Stalin tanks to boot. There was even one old T34-85 that was broken down and having repairs made to it. Not much in the way of modern tanks. I suppose these were in reserve.

[Skipper]

IS-3s were still around (in the form of immobile pillboxes, dug-in) in 80s.

For Korea, soviet General Staff had some contingency plans and deployments, but I wouldn't say so surely that it was a nuclear threat that stopped Stalin on that occasion. His strategy in Korea was quite strange - thus, he could have easily vetoed the UN resolution that gave USA a mandate to intervene. Instead, soviet delegation did not show up on the Security Council meeting.

As for the small "what-if" analysis, I would imagine that in case of full scale soviet intervention 64th fighter corpse would be brought up to an air army strength, get bombs and bombers, and be allowed free hunt south of 48 parallel and over the sea. Hence, not quite as simple as that.

[Mace]

I do recall reading somewhere that they participate in a victory parade in Germany immediately after war's end.

This perhaps suggests that although they never took part in any fighting, some must have been available near the front lines.

Perhaps the reason was for combat trials?

Mace

[Skipper]

The reason, afaik, was to scare the beejesus out of foreign observers.

[This message has been edited by Skipper (edited 03-26-2001).]

[Commissar]

According to the Russian Military Zone, the order to stop using the IS-2 came only in 1995. Apparently there were still being used in some places. I wonder how many of them they have mothballed. Those wacky Russians don't seem to want to throw anything away.

[Skipper]

Judging by the fact that there are still thousands of Maxim and Hotchkiss MGs in russian military warehouses, there must be some of those tanks, too

[The Commissar]

Why throw something perfectly useable out? Sure, it wont do much at all in modern firefights, but it could be used for training purposes.

Since Soviets mass-produce everything, most of the old useless junk isnt thrown away, melted down, or put in museums like in Western nations - it's sold to desperate 3rd world countries who dont have much in the way of weapons and need anything they can get. Dont be fooled - tanks, no matter how old (well, maybe not WW1) can still be deadly and thus being in possesion of one when your enemy has nothing to stop them is a fine advantage.

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"...Every position, every meter of Soviet soil must be defended to the last drop of blood..."

- Segment from Order 227 "Not a step back"

[Gregory Deych]

Originally posted by gunnergoz:

It's only known combat service was with the Egyptians, in particular during the 1973 war. The Israelis found out that their Pattons and Centurions had a difficult time with the IS-3's thick frontal armor. Their infantry AT weapons were also inadequate. The solution was made after the Israeli's discovered how ponderous the IS-3 was attempting to manouver on the battlefield and also that it's turret was very slow to traverse. The Israeli's manouvered their speedier MBT's for flank shots and took out the IS-3's that way.

Those were not IS-3s, but rather T-10M, which were a modified version of the IS.

[Guest machineman]

A link to the IS-3 article on 'Russian Battlefield:

http://history.vif2.ru/is3.html

[Guest Mike the bike]

Originally posted by Gregory Deych:

Those were not IS-3s, but rather T-10M, which were a modified version of the IS.

Not so - the Egyptians were using IS-3's, and many of them weer knocked out by Super Shermans and AMX-13's - using the 75mm gun formerly mounted on Panthers!!

[Teutonicc]

This Quote is from a caption on pg 69 of "Stalins's Heavy Tanks 1941-1945 The KV and Is Heavy Tanks" by Zaloga, Kinnear, Aksenov & Koshchavtsev.

"The Is-3 entered production in May 1945. It did not appear in time to participate in the war in Europe. However, a few regiments were dispatched to Manchuria for the war against Japan, but it is not known if they saw any actual combat."

Teutonicc

[This message has been edited by Teutonicc (edited 03-28-2001).]

[109 Gustav]

The glacis plate would indeed be a welder's nightmare. Lots of multipassing, (welding on top of welds) some of it vertical, which is harder to do. I don't know what the quality of Soviet welding was during the war, but for the US it was still a fairly new technique. Add in all the newly trained welders, and it's amazing that those glacis plates held together at all.

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[Gregory Deych]

Originally posted by Mike the bike:

Not so - the Egyptians were using IS-3's, and many of them weer knocked out by Super Shermans and AMX-13's - using the 75mm gun formerly mounted on Panthers!!

I stand corrected. I doublechecked my sources, and T-10 was never exported, while IS-3/IS-3M were sent to Egypt.