Guest Captitalistdoginchina Posted February 1, 2001 Share Posted February 1, 2001 I did a serach under "Firefly" but could not find the answer to this simple question. The Regular Firefly II C costs one point less than a Firefly V C - the only difference i can find is that the VC has a slightly larger ammo loadout. Is that the reason for the point difference or is there another reason that is not obvious to me? Any comments would be welcome. CDIC ------------------ "Death solves all problems - no man no problem" J.V.Stalin, 1918 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DEF BUNGIS Posted February 1, 2001 Share Posted February 1, 2001 AAHHHHH!!!!! It never existed! Thats the point value difference. BTS has created an imaginary vehicle and increased the point value by one so as to make it look like it really did exist. Their messing with our brains man! No one, ever, on this forum has produced a picture of the Firefly IIC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forever Babra Posted February 1, 2001 Share Posted February 1, 2001 And Lord how we've tried... ------------------ When it's my turn to march up to Glory, I'm gonna have one HELL of a story... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GriffinCheng+ Posted February 1, 2001 Share Posted February 1, 2001 It has been mentioned many times before. Try these but inconclusive: http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/Forum1/HTML/009492.html or this: http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/Forum1/HTML/014009.html In HPS book on military hardware, it mentions only 1 Sherman Firefly but never distinguish Firefly VC or IIC. Griffin. ------------------ "When you find your PBEM opportents too hard to beat, there is always the AI." "Can't get enough Tank?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted February 1, 2001 Share Posted February 1, 2001 Just read both threads cited - interesting, thanks for the link. The only new info I have - and I hate using this as a "source" - but the ASL rulebook mentions that about 2/3 of the British Sherman tanks just prior to El Alamein were Sherman IIs, and that 942 Sherman IIs in all were shipped to England. (These are not Fireflies but standard 75mm gun armed tanks). It does not say how many were converted to Fireflies, only that the most common Firefly was the VC, with the next most common types being IIC and IC. Their rarity factor is higher than other Fireflies. George Forty doesn't seem to give any numbers on IIC Fireflies either. From the threads you mentioned, and the "new sources" just mentioned, there doesn't appear to be anything really conclusive, and if the IIC Fireflies saw action, it seems to have been a rarity. From the numbers ASL gives, if you believe them, you would have to imagine that not many IICs would have been on hand by 1944 to convert. Wouldn't you????? ------------------ http://wargames.freehosting.net/cmbits.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Captitalistdoginchina Posted February 1, 2001 Share Posted February 1, 2001 He he i was wondering as to the meaning of the first 2 replies......after reading the links it appears i innocently stumbled into an old topic from last year (That old thread has just been resurected). I don't know much about the history of Shermans, i had only noticed the one point difference in the purchase screen - hence my question. Sorry if i caused some frustration for you guys who have debated this subject (Indirectly) for some time. CDIC ------------------ "Death solves all problems - no man no problem" J.V.Stalin, 1918 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GriffinCheng+ Posted February 1, 2001 Share Posted February 1, 2001 After a search in google.com, using "sherman firefly iic" gives, after a long list of Combat Missions sites, this even more confusing page: http://british-forces.com/fkac/vehicles/tanks/Firefly.html ------------------ "When you find your PBEM opportents too hard to beat, there is always the AI." "Can't get enough Tank?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pacestick Posted February 1, 2001 Share Posted February 1, 2001 Mental Note capitalist dog has fireflies, be careful positioning my KT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GriffinCheng+ Posted February 1, 2001 Share Posted February 1, 2001 B2T: this one may close things up: http://x55.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=501713475&CONTEXT=981014000.405798943&hitnum=1 Griffin. ------------------ "When you find your PBEM opportents too hard to beat, there is always the AI." "Can't get enough Tank?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mccooper Posted February 2, 2001 Share Posted February 2, 2001 Hello I think part of problem with the debate of the phantom IIC (aka up gunned M4A1) as promoted by web sites like "http://british-forces.com/fkac/vehicles/tanks/Firefly.html" is that there were two types of 76mm (approx size) guns in use. The US 76mm and the British 17 lber. The British and American armies did their best to up gun their tanks in order to cope with the heavier German armour appearing on the battle field. In British army this policy resulted in a number of new tanks/versions seeing service such as the Firefly (VC, IC, IC Hybrid), Archer, Challenger. Britain went with the 17 lber since the gun was already in service with British forces and available. It ensured that the already stressed supply system didn't get another complication and the gun also packed a little more punch then its US counter part. Shermans up gunned with a 17 lber were given the additional designation of "C". Thus the American M4A4 which was classified as a Sherman V by the British became the VC. So there were in 2 types of 76mm guns in service during the war. Now if you want to apply the British classification system to all Shermans - regardless of who made/operated the vehicles and the type of 76mm gun mounted then yes you can argue that there is a IC, IIC, IIIC .... etc. But if you follow the facts/rules there is no IIC or for that matter a IIIC. As for books/printed text - be careful what you read. I can not claim to be an expert on Shermans and I certainly don't have the honour to be recognized published author like George Forty. But Mr. Forty is only human and he has made mistakes. Overall, I would love to see someone produce solid evidence of a Firefly IIC (not counting the Canadian Grizzly in Borden). Besides leading to new reference material for my library it might even result in a new model kit .... you can never have too many Shermans . Until that time the Firefly IIC will remain a phantom of the imagination. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DraGoon Posted February 2, 2001 Share Posted February 2, 2001 Originally posted by mccooper: .......**Snip** So there were in 2 types of 76mm guns in service during the war. Now if you want to apply the British classification system to all Shermans - regardless of who made/operated the vehicles and the type of 76mm gun mounted then yes you can argue that there is a IC, IIC, IIIC .... etc. But if you follow the facts/rules there is no IIC or for that matter a IIIC. ....***Snip*** Any Sherman in British service equipped with a 76mm Main Armament was given the suffix designation A ie: Sherman Ia IIa etc. The designation C was reserved entirely for the 17lbr. Like Babra and others I would dearly love to find a good picture of a Sherman IIc, but I doubt I will. I have plenty of pics of Sherman Ic and Vc. The only major user of the Sherman II in British service in the ETO was 4th Armoured Brigade, if any unit had IIc it would have been them. The pics and accounts of these units which I have seen all show either Sherman Vc or Hybrid Ic. (Hybrid = cast (rounded) hull front mated to welded (angular) rear) Unless of course someone knows better. ------------------ CM Outpost Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon Posted February 2, 2001 Share Posted February 2, 2001 Well, "British and American Tanks of World War Two" by Chamberlain and Ellis, under the British Sherman Variants section lists the following: Sherman IIC, Sherman IVC and Sherman VC They have pictures of a IC, IVC and VC. So, they don't list the IC, but provide a photograph of one, and list the IIC, but don't provide a photograph. Not sure if this helps or not. Gordon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Hough Posted February 2, 2001 Share Posted February 2, 2001 As for the original question, yes, the greater ammo loadout is probably the reason for the price increase. Any increase in he or t shells carried significantly increases the amount of damage the tank can do. -John ------------------ so you can stay cool behind your window and choose the view you want to see but as long as there's others held captive do not consider yourself free -EMBRACE, "DO NOT CONSIDER YOURSELF FREE" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Captitalistdoginchina Posted February 2, 2001 Share Posted February 2, 2001 Thanks John. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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