Manx_CM Posted April 16, 2001 Share Posted April 16, 2001 Wespe / Marder III by Tiger Wire Mesh Add-on for Tigers Panzer IV, by Scipio Tigers Original: Scipio's Mesh Add-on: Now ready to d/l @ COMBAT MISSIONS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug Williams Posted April 16, 2001 Share Posted April 16, 2001 Manx, Nice mods. The link to the Wespe/Marder III mod seems to be broken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manx_CM Posted April 16, 2001 Author Share Posted April 16, 2001 Thanks Doug....should be fixed now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Brian Posted April 16, 2001 Share Posted April 16, 2001 I'm a little confused about the mods usage. Seems like some of the mods overwrite each other. Also, for example, there are different color schemes. So, do I have to specify which vehcile the game uses, or does the scenario designer do that? I guess, my question really is, do I just drop all the bmps into the folder, and let CM sort them out??????? Thanks in advance! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maximus Posted April 16, 2001 Share Posted April 16, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dr. Brian: I'm a little confused about the mods usage. Seems like some of the mods overwrite each other. Also, for example, there are different color schemes. So, do I have to specify which vehcile the game uses, or does the scenario designer do that? I guess, my question really is, do I just drop all the bmps into the folder, and let CM sort them out??????? Thanks in advance!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Well yeah, CM only uses one texture for any given thing at any given time. So what you have to do is to pick which texture you want to use and install that one. Over-writing whatever is in there originally. I other words there is just one set of textures for the PzIV. So decide which camo pattern you like best and install that one. It won't change until you install another PzIV mod. Get it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug Williams Posted April 16, 2001 Share Posted April 16, 2001 Dr. Brian, It is all explained in the document "CM Mods for Newbies", available at the Combat Missions web site. Combat Missions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Brian Posted April 16, 2001 Share Posted April 16, 2001 Cool, thanks for the post, and the link for newbies! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrSpkr Posted April 16, 2001 Share Posted April 16, 2001 Umm, hey Scipio - why the mesh? Was this some sort of shrapnel limiting device? Doesn't seem sturdy enough to stop AP. MrSpkr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger Posted April 16, 2001 Share Posted April 16, 2001 here's a not-so-dark pic of the same chassis: Marder III. With my hypersnap version, '4.something', I find I have to correct the gamma as it makes the snapped pictures darker than in game by about 15 points. The side skirts were to protect against hollow charge weapons such as bazookas and panzerfausts, as well as molotov cocktails and magnetic mines, bombs and AT gernades, IIRC. The Soviets used old bed spring frames on the sides of their tanks occasionally (I have a picture of this somewhere). The schurtzen skirts/plates were only a few mm thick (5-8 mm) and did not actually represent any type of up-armoring. You can find pictures of tanks with the heavy-gauge wire mesh skirts too. Excellent job Scipio! -Tiger [ 04-16-2001: Message edited by: Tiger ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Duquette Posted April 17, 2001 Share Posted April 17, 2001 Amazing the level of talent here. I love all of the vehicle and terrain mods you MOD folks produce. Manx_CM: How did you accomplish the semi-transparent look of the MkIV mesh? Quick comment (or vote). Regarding one texture per vehicle type in CMBO…with proper coding is it realistic to think that multiple textures slots could be provided for some of the more common vehicle types. I’m Thinking of some of the vehicle MODs in which tank ID numbers are painted on the sides of vehicles…or the new M10 MOD in which the artist put a confederate flag on the side of the turret and “Spirt of Atlanta” on the hull. How about 3 or 4 T34/76 slots for CM2…each T34 has its own vehicle name stenciled on the side or vehicle ID number…etc? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warmaker Posted April 17, 2001 Share Posted April 17, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MrSpkr: Umm, hey Scipio - why the mesh? Was this some sort of shrapnel limiting device? Doesn't seem sturdy enough to stop AP. MrSpkr<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> The purpose of Schurzen(side skirts seen on many German panzers) is to negate the effects of shaped charges© by detonating the shell before impacting the hull itself. This disrupts the little chemical reaction shaped charges use to "melt" their way through armor by setting it off before the hull itself. Later in the war with resources at their limits the Germans began to use wire mesh as a very cheap replacement for the Schurzen. It works just as well as the Schurzen but are much more flimsy. Wonder why your 'zook/c rounds don't do anything to "skirted" panzers with flank hull shots? The schurzen are the reason why. I'm not sure if CMBO models this but panzers, esp. the PzKpfw IV were decked out alot in schurzen for the hull and many times with a schurzen for the turret sides. One note: these things were never meant to defeat AP rounds. They're just cheap, effective, and expedient ways to negate shaped charges. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Duquette Posted April 17, 2001 Share Posted April 17, 2001 Actually Schurzen was used specifically to retard AP rounds. Moreover the large number of Soviet 14.5mm Anti-Tank rifles (ATR) and their effectiveness against side and rear armour of MkIII’s, MkIV’s, and Stug III’s resulted in the addition of side skirt mesh, or plates to hull areas, and side and rear protective skirts for turret areas. Presumably in the case of mesh a large enough cross-sectional area of heavy steel wire was present such that probability of impact by incoming ATR rounds was sufficiently high to justify its adoption. A trade off between added weight and protective surface area relative to heavier plate Shurzen (but that is for engineers). <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>From: Walter Speilberger’s “Sturmgeschutz & Its Varients”, Pg. 92 - 93 Schurzen Side Skirts The previously mentioned Schuzen side-skirts became a topic of discussion during the Fuhrer's conference on 6 and 7 February 1943. Hitler was quite in agreement with mounting skirts on the Panzer III, IV and Sturmgeschutz to provide protection against Russian anti-tank rifles. Test firings on Schurzen protective skirts (wire and steel plates) were reported on February 20, 1943. Firing tests utilizing the Russian 14.5mm anti-tank rifle at a distance of 100m (90 degrees) showed no tears or penetration of the 30mm side armor, when protected either by plates or wire mesh. When testing was conducted with the 75mm high explosive shell (Charge 2) from a field gun, there was no damage to the sides of the hull armor when protected by the wire or plates. Wire mesh and plates had indeed been penetrated and even torn away, but, they sdll remained usable. The decision to utilize the plates as opposed to the wire mesh (although both had proven effective and the mesh was lighter) was based on the fact that the wire mesh required the design of a new mount, which would have required additional time to be developed. Additionally, the procurement of wire mesh for the side skirts was difficult. The skirts were not tested against shaped charges, nor were they intended as protection against shaped charge (HEAT) shells. On March 6 1943, Hitler indicated that he was satisfied with the favorable results of the firing tests against the Schurzen side skirts. In addition to outfitting all newly produced Sturmgeschutz, Panzer IV and Panthers with side skirts, all armored vehicles of these types currently deployed and those undergoing maintenance, were to be backfitted with them. The schedule for fitting Schurzen was to be expedited. The manufacturing firms beganof Schurzen side skirts for Sturmgeschutz for the purpose of retro-fitting had already been sent to the Eastern Front. In early June 1943 the first front-line units retrofitted their Sturmgeschutz. With this modification, the Sturmgeschutz were ready to begin the Kursk offensive. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I have another – less “wordy” – intelligence report generated by the US ARMY (circa 1944) detailing the employment of Shurzen as a means of defeating Soviet ATR rounds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warmaker Posted April 17, 2001 Share Posted April 17, 2001 While on the subject of Schurzen, I've got a question myself: I see the Panther A has them, but CMBO doesn't allow the later produced Panther G/G late to have them? I seem to recall at least a bunch of models having them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeT Posted April 17, 2001 Share Posted April 17, 2001 Jeff, the wire mesh is really a very simple mod. I submitted my design months ago to MaddMatt but he rejected the idea. Basically you just draw the pink transparency lines across the existing side skirt creating a grid pattern and save. The program takes care of the rest. MikeT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Duquette Posted April 17, 2001 Share Posted April 17, 2001 I had thought the lower hull protection skirts were unique to the MKVA. However, taking a quick picture tour of Jentz's "Panther, The Quest for Combat Supremacy" there are Photos of the MKVD with the lower side skirts over the tracks as well. You might consider opening a separate thread for a more concise answer from one of the local Panzer Guru lurkers that always seem to have this kind of info at their finger-tips. Perhaps the MkV’s destined for the Western Front straight from the factory didn’t always get outfitted with schuerzen? Allies had long since abandoned ATR’s by 43-44 in favor of the PIAT and M1a1/M9. Dunno...good question. Anyway here is a bit from Jentz "Panther, The Quest for Combat Supremacy” Pg 35 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> 2.3.10 SCHUERZEN - PROTECTIVE SKIRTS Starting in April 1943, Schuerzen (protective skirts made from soft steel) were mounted to prevent penetration of the 40 mm thick lower hull side by rounds fired at close range from Rus- sian anti-tank rifles. The Schuerzen were tested and proven to be effective against direct hits from 75 mm high-explosive shells as well as anti-tank rifles. The invention of Schuerzen saved the Panther 1. If the Panther I hadn't been able to cope with anti-tank rifles, production would have been converted to the Panther II. The Schuerzen were not intended to de- feat and were not initially tested against hollow charge rounds.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Duquette Posted April 17, 2001 Share Posted April 17, 2001 Thanks for the answer MikeT. The mesh schuerzen is a very cool touch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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