COMBAT MISSIONS: MODS - Wespe/Marder3 + PzIV Mesh Add-on

[Manx_CM]

Wespe / Marder III by Tiger

Wire Mesh Add-on for Tigers Panzer IV, by Scipio

Tigers Original:

Scipio's Mesh Add-on:

Now ready to d/l @ COMBAT MISSIONS

[Doug Williams]

Manx,

Nice mods. The link to the Wespe/Marder III mod seems to be broken.

[Manx_CM]

Thanks Doug....should be fixed now.

[Dr. Brian]

I'm a little confused about the mods usage. Seems like some of the mods overwrite each other. Also, for example, there are different color schemes. So, do I have to specify which vehcile the game uses, or does the scenario designer do that?

I guess, my question really is, do I just drop all the bmps into the folder, and let CM sort them out???????

Thanks in advance!

[Maximus]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dr. Brian:

I'm a little confused about the mods usage. Seems like some of the mods overwrite each other. Also, for example, there are different color schemes. So, do I have to specify which vehcile the game uses, or does the scenario designer do that?

I guess, my question really is, do I just drop all the bmps into the folder, and let CM sort them out???????

Thanks in advance!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well yeah, CM only uses one texture for any given thing at any given time. So what you have to do is to pick which texture you want to use and install that one. Over-writing whatever is in there originally.

I other words there is just one set of textures for the PzIV. So decide which camo pattern you like best and install that one. It won't change until you install another PzIV mod. Get it?

[Doug Williams]

Dr. Brian,

It is all explained in the document "CM Mods for Newbies", available at the Combat Missions web site.

Combat Missions

[Dr. Brian]

Cool, thanks for the post, and the link for newbies!

[MrSpkr]

Umm, hey Scipio - why the mesh? Was this some sort of shrapnel limiting device? Doesn't seem sturdy enough to stop AP.

MrSpkr

[Tiger]

here's a not-so-dark pic of the same chassis: Marder III. With my hypersnap version, '4.something', I find I have to correct the gamma as it makes the snapped pictures darker than in game by about 15 points.

The side skirts were to protect against hollow charge weapons such as bazookas and panzerfausts, as well as molotov cocktails and magnetic mines, bombs and AT gernades, IIRC. The Soviets used old bed spring frames on the sides of their tanks occasionally (I have a picture of this somewhere). The schurtzen skirts/plates were only a few mm thick (5-8 mm) and did not actually represent any type of up-armoring. You can find pictures of tanks with the heavy-gauge wire mesh skirts too.

Excellent job Scipio!

-Tiger

[ 04-16-2001: Message edited by: Tiger ]

[Jeff Duquette]

Amazing the level of talent here. I love all of the vehicle and terrain mods you MOD folks produce.

Manx_CM: How did you accomplish the semi-transparent look of the MkIV mesh?

Quick comment (or vote). Regarding one texture per vehicle type in CMBO…with proper coding is it realistic to think that multiple textures slots could be provided for some of the more common vehicle types. I’m Thinking of some of the vehicle MODs in which tank ID numbers are painted on the sides of vehicles…or the new M10 MOD in which the artist put a confederate flag on the side of the turret and “Spirt of Atlanta” on the hull. How about 3 or 4 T34/76 slots for CM2…each T34 has its own vehicle name stenciled on the side or vehicle ID number…etc?

[Warmaker]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MrSpkr:

Umm, hey Scipio - why the mesh? Was this some sort of shrapnel limiting device? Doesn't seem sturdy enough to stop AP.

MrSpkr<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The purpose of Schurzen(side skirts seen on many German panzers) is to negate the effects of shaped charges© by detonating the shell before impacting the hull itself. This disrupts the little chemical reaction shaped charges use to "melt" their way through armor by setting it off before the hull itself. Later in the war with resources at their limits the Germans began to use wire mesh as a very cheap replacement for the Schurzen. It works just as well as the Schurzen but are much more flimsy. Wonder why your 'zook/c rounds don't do anything to "skirted" panzers with flank hull shots? The schurzen are the reason why. I'm not sure if CMBO models this but panzers, esp. the PzKpfw IV were decked out alot in schurzen for the hull and many times with a schurzen for the turret sides.

One note: these things were never meant to defeat AP rounds. They're just cheap, effective, and expedient ways to negate shaped charges.

[Jeff Duquette]

Actually Schurzen was used specifically to retard AP rounds. Moreover the large number of Soviet 14.5mm Anti-Tank rifles (ATR) and their effectiveness against side and rear armour of MkIII’s, MkIV’s, and Stug III’s resulted in the addition of side skirt mesh, or plates to hull areas, and side and rear protective skirts for turret areas. Presumably in the case of mesh a large enough cross-sectional area of heavy steel wire was present such that probability of impact by incoming ATR rounds was sufficiently high to justify its adoption. A trade off between added weight and protective surface area relative to heavier plate Shurzen (but that is for engineers).

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>From: Walter Speilberger’s “Sturmgeschutz & Its Varients”, Pg. 92 - 93

Schurzen Side Skirts

The previously mentioned Schuzen side-skirts became a

topic of discussion during the Fuhrer's conference on 6

and 7 February 1943. Hitler was quite in agreement with

mounting skirts on the Panzer III, IV and Sturmgeschutz

to provide protection against Russian anti-tank rifles.

Test firings on Schurzen protective skirts (wire and steel

plates) were reported on February 20, 1943. Firing tests

utilizing the Russian 14.5mm anti-tank rifle at a distance

of 100m (90 degrees) showed no tears or penetration of the

30mm side armor, when protected either by plates or wire

mesh. When testing was conducted with the 75mm high

explosive shell (Charge 2) from a field gun, there was no

damage to the sides of the hull armor when protected by

the wire or plates. Wire mesh and plates had indeed been

penetrated and even torn away, but, they sdll remained

usable.

The decision to utilize the plates as opposed to the wire

mesh (although both had proven effective and the mesh

was lighter) was based on the fact that the wire mesh

required the design of a new mount, which would have

required additional time to be developed.

Additionally, the procurement of wire mesh for the side

skirts was difficult. The skirts were not tested against

shaped charges, nor were they intended as protection

against shaped charge (HEAT) shells.

On March 6 1943, Hitler indicated that he was satisfied

with the favorable results of the firing tests against the

Schurzen side skirts. In addition to outfitting all newly

produced Sturmgeschutz, Panzer IV and Panthers with

side skirts, all armored vehicles of these types currently

deployed and those undergoing maintenance, were to be

backfitted with them. The schedule for fitting Schurzen

was to be expedited.

The manufacturing firms beganof Schurzen side skirts

for Sturmgeschutz for the purpose of retro-fitting had

already been sent to the Eastern Front. In early June 1943

the first front-line units retrofitted their Sturmgeschutz.

With this modification, the Sturmgeschutz were ready to

begin the Kursk offensive.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have another – less “wordy” – intelligence report generated by the US ARMY (circa 1944) detailing the employment of Shurzen as a means of defeating Soviet ATR rounds

[Warmaker]

While on the subject of Schurzen, I've got a question myself: I see the Panther A has them, but CMBO doesn't allow the later produced Panther G/G late to have them? I seem to recall at least a bunch of models having them.

[MikeT]

Jeff, the wire mesh is really a very simple mod. I submitted my design months ago to MaddMatt but he rejected the idea. Basically you just draw the pink transparency lines across the existing side skirt creating a grid pattern and save. The program takes care of the rest.

MikeT

[Jeff Duquette]

I had thought the lower hull protection skirts were unique to the MKVA. However, taking a quick picture tour of Jentz's "Panther, The Quest for Combat Supremacy" there are Photos of the MKVD with the lower side skirts over the tracks as well. You might consider opening a separate thread for a more concise answer from one of the local Panzer Guru lurkers that always seem to have this kind of info at their finger-tips. Perhaps the MkV’s destined for the Western Front straight from the factory didn’t always get outfitted with schuerzen? Allies had long since abandoned ATR’s by 43-44 in favor of the PIAT and M1a1/M9. Dunno...good question.

Anyway here is a bit from Jentz "Panther, The Quest for Combat Supremacy” Pg 35

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> 2.3.10 SCHUERZEN - PROTECTIVE SKIRTS

Starting in April 1943, Schuerzen (protective skirts made from

soft steel) were mounted to prevent penetration of the 40 mm

thick lower hull side by rounds fired at close range from Rus-

sian anti-tank rifles. The Schuerzen were tested and proven

to be effective against direct hits from 75 mm high-explosive

shells as well as anti-tank rifles. The invention of Schuerzen

saved the Panther 1. If the Panther I hadn't been able to cope

with anti-tank rifles, production would have been converted

to the Panther II. The Schuerzen were not intended to de-

feat and were not initially tested against hollow charge rounds.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Jeff Duquette]

Thanks for the answer MikeT. The mesh schuerzen is a very cool touch.