Hey BTS, how about a "Fallback" Command?

[Jaldaen]

I was wondering if anyone else would like to have a "fallback" command, kind of like the withdraw order (no delay with slight morale hit?) only with slower movement and with your men retaining their facing and fighting back (perhaps at half strength?)as they head towards a new position... this would be very helpful when you want to withdraw from a position but keep some heat on your attackers (so as not get gunned down from behind)... So what do you all think?

Just My Two Cents,

Jaldaen

[Panzer Leader]

While we're at it, I'd like a "Drop your guns and run for the hills!" command. We could call it something like "Hell Outta Dodge"

[Mannheim Tanker]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jaldaen:

I was wondering if anyone else would like to have a "fallback" command, kind of like the withdraw order (no delay with slight morale hit?) only with slower movement and with your men retaining their facing and fighting back (perhaps at half strength?)as they head towards a new position... this would be very helpful when you want to withdraw from a position but keep some heat on your attackers (so as not get gunned down from behind)... So what do you all think?

Just My Two Cents,

Jaldaen<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

IMO you can already do this. To properly withdraw (as opposed to running like hell for the rear!), the situation requires that someone cover the retreating unit. If you can sufficiently suppress the enemy fire with one unit, you can withdraw the other a ways back. Then the unit(s) that was suppressing becomes the withdrawing unit while the withdrawing unit(s) provides cover fire. Wash, rinse, and repeat.

If you're looking a way to withdraw and provide cover fire from within a single squad, then you can't do it under the current system. Then again, if you're in the situation where you must do a single-squad withdrawal, you're already screwed and had better retreat with the current command at your disposal!

My $.02...

[SenorBeef]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jaldaen:

I was wondering if anyone else would like to have a "fallback" command, kind of like the withdraw order (no delay with slight morale hit?) only with slower movement and with your men retaining their facing and fighting back (perhaps at half strength?)as they head towards a new position... this would be very helpful when you want to withdraw from a position but keep some heat on your attackers (so as not get gunned down from behind)... So what do you all think?

Just My Two Cents,

Jaldaen<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sounds interesting, I like it.

[Panzer Leader]

So would they be walking backwards or firing over their shoulder?

Honestly I don't see how this command would be reflected in the real world. I think Tanker had the most suitable answer - and tada! it's already modeled in the game.

[CMplayer]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Panzer Leader:

So would they be walking backwards or firing over their shoulder? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

They run-turn-fire, run-turn-fire.

regards,

--Rett

[Marlow]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Panzer Leader:

Honestly I don't see how this command would be reflected in the real world. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Break contact the real world version. The squad falls back one man at a time as the rest of the squad covers for him. The first man empties his magazine towards the enemy, and then hi-tails it to the rear. The next man in the squad then does the same thing, and so on until the last man in the squad. He pitchs a grenade, smoke, or something else that goes BOOM in the direction of the enemy, and takes off after his squad mates.

[Mannheim Tanker]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Marlow:

Break contact the real world version. The squad falls back one man at a time as the rest of the squad covers for him. The first man empties his magazine towards the enemy, and then hi-tails it to the rear. The next man in the squad then does the same thing, and so on until the last man in the squad. He pitchs a grenade, smoke, or something else that goes BOOM in the direction of the enemy, and takes off after his squad mates.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's one method, but at a larger scale (platoon level and higher) you can already do this in CM. Until CM allows multiple targets per unit, I can't see how your method would work, Marlow. I agree with you how it's done at the squad-level, however (that's how I was taught to do it).

[Marlow]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mannheim Tanker:

That's one method, but at a larger scale (platoon level and higher) you can already do this in CM. Until CM allows multiple targets per unit, I can't see how your method would work, Marlow. I agree with you how it's done at the squad-level, however (that's how I was taught to do it).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm not saying it would work in CM (and I don't really think we need anything at the squad level other than the current withdraw command). The question was about how it can work at the squad level in the real world.

[Col Deadmarsh]

Tanker demonstrated how to do this with two squads but I think Jaldaen is proposing that we need a command like this for a squad to retreat while taking cover and firing back at the opponent who might rush them as they move away.

The withdraw command is only for emergencies. It "is" the "get out of dodge" command. The advantage is that you get out of there ASAP. The disadvantage is that you put yourself into a position of being hit from behind while running away. The other disadvatage is that you can't rotate back to face the enemy after you withdraw.

Jaldaen's suggestion (I hope you don't mind me expanding on this) would allow a squad to slowly move away while still somewhat facing the enemy to shoot back at them if they were being followed or rushed at. The advantage is that you aren't shot in the back while running (which doesn't allow you to use cover) and that if you are followed by an enemy squad, you can suppress them and keep them at bay while you slowly move away. The disadvantage would be that you move away at a slower pace than withdrawing. (The morale hit would be less than withdrawing just like Jaldaen said.)

I think he has an excellent idea here and I'd like to see it in CM2.

[TopShelfCookieJar]

I guess you could split the squad, withdraw one half while providing cover fire with the other half, then swap roles.

[Mannheim Tanker]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jeeves:

I guess you could split the squad, withdraw one half while providing cover fire with the other half, then swap roles.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There's a man that's thinking. Good idea. BTW: I love what you listed as your occupation, Marlow! LOL! I had to look down the hall to make sure I didn't have a partner in crime here

[Tero]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jeeves:

I guess you could split the squad, withdraw one half while providing cover fire with the other half, then swap roles.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That could work. Except the Widraw command is only accepted towards your base line (start edge of the map). If you need to pull back/disengage/widraw and you would want to go in another direction than your base line you are stuck with the regular commands that assume your frontage is ahead of the unit, not behind.

But hey, the Germans never retreated, they just turned and advanced the other way.

I agree, there is a need for a separate Disengage/Fall back command that allows pulling your units out of a tight spot in a controlled fashion before it becomes a rout and that it would allow other directions than your baseline.

[lcm1947]

Yeah I like the idea you, so put me down for it also. Also, I learned something about using the current withdraw command - cool, I love learning stuff. One of these days I'll be bad. Then I'll take on Kiwi-Guy.

[Jaldaen]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Colonel_Deadmarsh:

Tanker demonstrated how to do this with two squads but I think Jaldaen is proposing that we need a command like this for a squad to retreat while taking cover and firing back at the opponent who might rush them as they move away.

The withdraw command is only for emergencies. It "is" the "get out of dodge" command. The advantage is that you get out of there ASAP. The disadvantage is that you put yourself into a position of being hit from behind while running away. The other disadvatage is that you can't rotate back to face the enemy after you withdraw.

Jaldaen's suggestion (I hope you don't mind me expanding on this) would allow a squad to slowly move away while still somewhat facing the enemy to shoot back at them if they were being followed or rushed at. The advantage is that you aren't shot in the back while running (which doesn't allow you to use cover) and that if you are followed by an enemy squad, you can suppress them and keep them at bay while you slowly move away. The disadvantage would be that you move away at a slower pace than withdrawing. (The morale hit would be less than withdrawing just like Jaldaen said.)

I think he has an excellent idea here and I'd like to see it in CM2.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's exactly what I'm looking for Colonel_Deadmarsh... The only fault with the staggered withdrawl (splitting forces or leaving one unit behind) is that with the splitting of squads you take a moral hit and if they are engaged they are a lot more likely to break and where is your cover fire then (running away and getting everyon shot in the back) Now as for leaving one squad behind to protect his retreating comrades that is probably going to turn them into swiss cheese if there is a concentrated attack going on. Essentially you trade either a portion of a squad or a squad to allow the rest of your squad or squads to retreat... although a valid tactic, it doesn't address what I'm looking for which is a command that pulls out an entire squad or platoon from a position being assaulted without them being mowed down from behind.

This would be very effective especailly with the addition of the assault and human wave commands that will be appearing in CM2... In fact this would be similar to the assault command in that it would be like "leapfrogging" backwards (probably slower moving then an assault, but perhaps enough to keep you from being overrun).

Just my 2 bits,

Jaldaen

[ 06-27-2001: Message edited by: Jaldaen ]

[Juardis]

I think this has already been mentioned, but one of the new commands in CM2 is assault, which is half the squad runs forward while the other half provides cover fire, then they switch roles with the half providing cover fire doing the advancing. It is represented on the screen as one squad moving at normal speed and the effective firepower is halved.

So it seems to me that a fallback command could be accomplished using similar coding except the unit is moving away from contact.

FWIW, I like the idea and wished I had it a couple times in CM1.

[Jaldaen]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Juardis:

I think this has already been mentioned, but one of the new commands in CM2 is assault, which is half the squad runs forward while the other half provides cover fire, then they switch roles with the half providing cover fire doing the advancing. It is represented on the screen as one squad moving at normal speed and the effective firepower is halved.

So it seems to me that a fallback command could be accomplished using similar coding except the unit is moving away from contact.

FWIW, I like the idea and wished I had it a couple times in CM1.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I wish I had it a couple times myself Too many of my men get themselves shot in the back

[Jaldaen]

Just giving this a bump in case anyone missed it (I'd like to hear some more points of view on this)

Thanks,

Jaldaen

[Jaldaen]

Bump for the Tanklord!

[The Tanklord]

Thanks Jaldaen

Great idea btw!

I really hope it gets in.