laxx Posted December 15, 2002 Share Posted December 15, 2002 Hi, Had my a** kicked playing the Russians in Tiger Tiger twice(!). In frustration, I even changed the reinforcement to appear BEHIND the german tanks (I know, I know!) but at point blank, the green t34s can't even aim properly and instead let some puny III 50mm destroy my no.1 voted MVP tank of WWII. Even the coveted uber KV-1 got knocked off frontally by the dang felines. I am very opened to suggestions /hints/spoilers /tips /cheats /hacks. Too bad BFC doesn't model the NKVD troops here. Btw, this is my first venture into medium sized scenarios (not counting the tutorial). [ December 15, 2002, 11:13 AM: Message edited by: laxx ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holien Posted December 15, 2002 Share Posted December 15, 2002 This is a tough one to win as the Russian and your only hope is that the Tigers Bog. Try and work on the supporting tanks and ignore the Tigers. If you can wipe his Infantry and MKIII's you will win. Ignore / hide from the Tigers as it is a waste of time trying to get them. H 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frunze Posted December 16, 2002 Share Posted December 16, 2002 Well, even with Shermans it's possible but not easy to take out Tigers. Short range, flank shots, hit 'em with two or more for each tiger, at least 90 degrees apart, coming into LOS at the same time, lotsa smoke to get into position. I did it in CMBO. I played this scenario as Germans, PBEM, though, and my opponent didn't figure out how to do it either. With the numerical advantage that the Soviets have, it might be possible. Conserve initial forces 'til reinforcements arrive? Strip off supporting forces like Holien says? Ambush with those puny AT guns? Don't underestimate those Panzer IIILs, though, mine actually killed as many tanks as the Tigers did. The IIINs are not very effective antitank though. If you can get good ID on 'em, tell which is which... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frunze Posted December 16, 2002 Share Posted December 16, 2002 double post [ December 16, 2002, 01:02 AM: Message edited by: Frunze ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laxx Posted December 16, 2002 Author Share Posted December 16, 2002 http://www.web.ms11.net/retro/tigertiger-rus-plan.jpg Screen shows the default set up, not my actual deployment. I am gonna try the following tonite: </font>[*] german unit likely approach (red arrows). rightmost likely to be tigers (for fear of bogging) along the road.</font>[*]Blue circles are my first line of defense. Will deploy troops to the left and t-26s to the right.</font>[*]Element of surprise will be essential(units will be hidden), massed firepower (however little) will be tried as well. </font>[*]Psychologically, must be prepared to lose alot of units, especially in blue zone, or do a hasty withdrawal when positions are overrun.</font>[*]T-34s + ATGs will be deployed in the centre of the hill and surrounding woods. Yellow Circle. Will only appear from hiding once blue circles are breached and enemy appears at the right corner of the road. </font>[*]Reinforcements will continue to bolster the central defense. Yellow Circle. What I hope to achieve:</font>[*]Tie up the german forces as long as humanly possible. Deny the VL until German tanks are crippled or more likely Time runs out. Points to consider, yet to be worked out</font>[*]perhaps another layer of defense between the blue and yellow circle. </font>[*]keyhole defense in the yellow zone </font>[*]infantry in built-up areas</font>[*]What to do about suppression of Enemy infantry (x 1 company)</font>[*]possible decoy for enemy artillery</font>[*]flanking on the left for reinforced tanks (did not succeed yesterday, may be better in prepared positions). Wish me well....*gulp* [ December 16, 2002, 02:41 AM: Message edited by: laxx ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rune Posted December 16, 2002 Share Posted December 16, 2002 The only way to deal with the Tigers, is to strip them of their support units, and use infantry to take them out. Kill off all the Panzer IIIs and Infantry, but know you are going to take a hit no matter what. Pick your ambush spots well, and if the Tigers go off road, you have a good chance that 1-2 may bog or go immobilized. Historically, the 4 Tigersdid well until they got stuck in the mud. The scenario was created for the "Tigers suck" crowd to show that when introduced, they were a frightful killing machine. It is difficult to win, but it IS possible as the Russians. Rune 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laxx Posted December 17, 2002 Author Share Posted December 17, 2002 Hi, Well, I had a minor victory this evening playing tiger tiger as russians (42 vs 58% allied). It was tough. In the end, the Germans had 3 tigers standing + 2 Panzer III. (12 vs 14 russian afv destroyed) What was especially tough was the fact that none of the tigers bogged, and I had to use infantry to rush and destroy the tiger. How I split the force, on the Russian Left, I had 3 x t34s, 3 x T26, 1 platoon, 2 ampulomets, 2 ptrd, 2 hmg. on the russian right, I had 3 t34s, 1 platoon, 1 ampulomets, 1 ptrd, 1 hmg on the centre, I had the platoon with 3 45mm guns. In Restrospect, The germans split the forces, one towards my left, while the other was moving centre, actually bypassing my right flank. My central forces did not have enuff firepower against the infantry, because each time the reinforcements went against the german infantry (centre), they would get shot down by the tigers. final landscape: 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rune Posted December 17, 2002 Share Posted December 17, 2002 Laxx, You indeed did well. You learned faster then the Russians did in real life. Glad you posted this...it shows: 1. The Tiger was truely uber when introduced. 2. The scenario IS winnable, and not just me saying it. As a reward...let me know if you are interested in testing a real battle I am calling Panzers in Finland. Rune 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holien Posted December 17, 2002 Share Posted December 17, 2002 Hi Laxx, Nice screen shot and good info for people, thanks. I presume this was against the AI and not another human? I am playing this against The Capt at the moment and he has had a few tanks bog but I have not yet been able to touch him. His Tigers have just chewed too many of my tanks and I am having a hard time learning how to handle the Russians without Radios and the time delays. H 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xerxes Posted December 17, 2002 Share Posted December 17, 2002 Another possible strategy with Tiger Tiger as the Soviets is to to use the superior mobility of the T34s and light tanks to :gulp: attack. Attacking quickly when you are the defender can severely disrupt an attackers plans, even more so if the attack has mobility restrictions. The goal of an attacking defense is not so much as to damage the "real" attacker as it is to throw off his timetable and psychologically shock him. This scenario has an excellent counter punching defensive force. Once the attacker has to react to an aggressive defender, everything changes. When you are mobile the Tigers are far less of a threat. Trying to hunker down against the Tigers (or other heavies) is often the wrong thing to do. The mobile defense also has a much better chance of getting those critical side shots on the tigers. Just a thought. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holien Posted December 17, 2002 Share Posted December 17, 2002 Hi Xerxes, I have tried that and managed to get a group of T34's behind his main advance. This has helped as he had to detach part of his force to deal with them. The problem with the T34's at this stage is that there is a horrible time delay as the crews are green. This meant that I got into a corner where I could not get out. It was uesful but this game is a lot harder with the time delays. Ahhh for the days of the Stuart rushing a Tiger. He He He.... The T-34 is a serious zipping machine just need some decent crews in it. H 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frunze Posted December 17, 2002 Share Posted December 17, 2002 Laxx, you took out a Tiger by rushing it with infantry? Just a regular squad with molotovs and grenades? 'Cause the Russians got no pioneers in this scenario, right? If that worked, I'm impressed. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laxx Posted December 18, 2002 Author Share Posted December 18, 2002 Hi, Frunz: Yes. I rushed the Russian right flank (picture left) to the scattered trees (you can see it in the centre picture, the lone tiger on the left side of the field with Russians. Tiger was killed with 1 squads + Platoon HQ, with grenade + molotovs. Tank was abandoned after 1 turn. I sort of threw caution in the wind by using Fast into the Scattered trees, advance within scattered trees, hide (rest) and when the tiger was really near, target the tiger. Holien & Xerxes: Yes, this is Me against AI. In my earlier game, i did a t-34 flanking attack that was not co-ordinated well enuff. I tried again in this game, refer to the picture, left centre (next to North marker), you can see an abandoned t-34,part of a t-34 platoon, that t-34 saw the tiger, reversed and got destroyed. The other two tanks, I rushed (fast move) towards the scattered trees in the centre. Rune : thanks for your kind comments. No, I will not take up your offer until I have played all your scenarios in the CD . I just started with Medium Scenarios and I am stressed. Can you believe I was mulling about this scenario for 2 days ?! Once Long-Distance-Duelling was ruled out, I decided that the best tactic would be a 2-line defense with massed firepower at well prepared points at short range. ie. I hid most of the units until the Germans stumbled upon them. Funny thing was that, the t-26 tanks were pretty useless where I put them, I should have positioned them against Infantry (near the centre). My reinforced tanks (map left) ended up have long distance duels with the German Left flank with good success against the Panzer III. And my right flank infantry (left map) was not used at all until I did the rush against the Tiger. Will try this scenario again. This time round will concentrate on putting more firepower into the russian left flank. Most of the action happened there and my infantry bore the brunt of the tank MG, HE, Artillery. One funny thing is that the German tanks do not turn into the corner along the road, they sort of knew the road corner was an ambush point and turned just before the corner along the open ground. Good thing about this game is that you can replay again and again unlike RealLife [ December 17, 2002, 07:29 PM: Message edited by: laxx ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tabpub Posted December 18, 2002 Share Posted December 18, 2002 Laxx: Those are T60's, not 26's. They have possibly the only duty of being targets, hopefully as a diversion. I am playing this against a human who kept his force slow and basically together down the road, with some flanking MKIII's on attackers right. No Tigers have been touched, tried, but like shooting PingPong balls at them. Tried to get the 'tilda's in close behind woods, but lost the duels. My tanks are smoking wrecks, but we have accounted for about 4-5 mk3's. Hell, I even had a 34 immob in the open in this one, didn't think he could... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holien Posted January 6, 2003 Share Posted January 6, 2003 Hi, Finished my attempt against a human, (if you can call the Capt that ) He did a Maj on me and I was crushed. I got into too many Tank Battles where the Tiger's just crushed me. I then replayed this at the weekend vs the AI and I managed a draw. I have a lot to learn on using Russian armour and how to deal with time delays. The one great victory with the AI was a penertration of a Tiger from a T34 side on from some distance. It was the Crack Tiger and it made me smile to see that they can be taken out occasionally. I guess a very very luck shot. This game is not balanced for human play but against the AI you will certainly improve your tank and defence tactics. Nice game as it can be replayed with you feeling that you might do better next time. Unlike a certain grave yard that justs gets frustrating. H 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laxx Posted January 6, 2003 Author Share Posted January 6, 2003 holien: heh as lucky as my squad + 1 hq killing a tiger with molotovs or grenade or mines. congrats, this scenario isn't about winning its about how much can you hold off the germans. i agree with you on that *ahem* Hill. that is a killer. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DBaron Posted January 7, 2003 Share Posted January 7, 2003 Laxx I played this scenario over christmas. I know its a little late to help you out, but just for comparisons sake I thought I would post mine. This is the setup I used: The idea was to have the two tank groups hide behind the hills, and pop them up when the germans got close enough. The AT guns were to remain hidden until the last minute, while the infantry were to hold the town along with the t-60's. As the reinforcements came in I moved one group of T34's and the matildas into the town, one group of t34's and the KV-2 went to the left side, and the last group of T-34s I ended up hiding behind the church, since by the time they arrived, I wasn't having much luck and I didn't want to waste anymore tanks. The hill on the left turned into a graveyard for soviet tanks. I ended up getting a draw out of the whole deal, though I got my butt stomped. I had big problems with command delays (one up to 75 seconds for a T34!). As it played out, the main german forces came down the road from the right, and I waited until the last minute until I attacked. I did ok intially, but after that I kept having to send my tanks in piecemeal thanks to command delays, and the staggered arrival of reinforcements. I placed great hopes on the KV-2's and was sorely let down (such a slow rate of fire and they didn't hit anything anyway). I managed to hold off the germans, but if the battle had lasted longer, I don't think I would have been able to hold the town, since I had no real answer to the tigers, and a few german squads were on the outskirts The blue line indicates the german tanks, the dashed line the german infantry, the red x's are tanks/at guns that are knocked out , pink D's are tanks that damaged, yellow I's are for immobilized, and green are for tanks still ok. The tank in the upper right is mine, I sent it on a suicide mission to try and tank the germans from the rear (it got spotted anyway). I am curious as to the actual outcome of this battle, if it really occurred? [ January 07, 2003, 03:44 AM: Message edited by: DBaron ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rune Posted January 7, 2003 Share Posted January 7, 2003 The battle is real...the only reason it is semi-historical is I could not get a good enough map. The forces are accurate. In real life, the tanks advanced over the causeway, and the Tigers were creating havoc when they became mired in mud and sand, and breakdowns. The Germans not wanting to have their new tanks captured stopped the attack, and if I remember right, lost a tiger to enemy fire. A Historical scenario is supposed to show you what happened and why...even though once it starts technically it is no longer a historical scenario. This scenario was made for the crowd that stated the tiger sucks....as you can see, when introduced, it was an awesome weapon. The problem most people have is they focus on the tigers....don't....take out the support elements and you can wind up with a draw or even a win. The Panzer IIIs were to supply the anti-infantry role, and the tiger the anti-tank role and this changed over time, and units were strictly tigers. Rune 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holien Posted January 7, 2003 Share Posted January 7, 2003 This is an interesting game as the key is using the T34's well enough to strip off the German armour. The Command Delays are a killer and even with shoot and scoot it is a tough time to get hits without being picked off. I am not sure if it is better to use the T34's at close range or long range. Long range the Germans get more hits as there optics are better. However the T34's stand a better chance of shrugging them off. Short range the Soviets have a better chance to hit but they die quicker as well. What do people think is the best approach to using the T34's short or long? H 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berlichtingen Posted January 7, 2003 Share Posted January 7, 2003 Originally posted by Holien: What do people think is the best approach to using the T34's short or long?Short There is a hollow on the right and the left. Move your initial tanks into them and rush your reinforcements in there as well. This allows you to hit the Germans from the flanks with your massed armor. That was my approach anyway 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holien Posted January 7, 2003 Share Posted January 7, 2003 Hi Berli, Thanks for the response I will try this tonight if I get the chance. I had some success with rushing three T34's forward on the right flank. They were then behind the German assualt. (I consider this a tad gamey as I know the setup of the Germans and would not do this if I did not know it was safe to do so at the start.) Against a human player (the Capt) I managed to slow down his assualt and waste time in chasing them down. The AI ignores them and this allows you to have them come in behind the attack. Pity Harry does not show up as he might learn something here. H 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DBaron Posted January 7, 2003 Share Posted January 7, 2003 T34's short or long? If this question is in regards to the Tiger Tiger scenario, than short range would be better I guess, though I am not really sure what is considered 'short' range? I used mine at distances from 600m to 300m with mixed results, though I would have liked to be closer. Otherwise, if its a general question, than I would say it would depend on what year you were using the t34 in. I would use them in long range in 41 early 42, then probably short range after that. T3485's I would use in long range. Rune thanks for your response regarding the outcome of the scenario. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berlichtingen Posted January 7, 2003 Share Posted January 7, 2003 Hopefully this will be clear... These are the two hollows I refered to 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holien Posted January 7, 2003 Share Posted January 7, 2003 Yep I know the two... As for the question it relates to Tiger Tiger. I have yet to play with a T34 85 or much else really so I have that fun to come... H 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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