CM2 and captured tanks.

[Jarmo]

Will CM2 have germans and others using captured soviet equipment? How about the other way around? I saw there's been some discussion about this, but I didn't find anything conclusive.

I don't have any solid numbers, but thousands of soviet tanks (mainly T-26's) were captured by the germans, many were put to use. I don't know how many, but I'd hazard a guess there were enough to make them one of the more numerous german tanks. Certainly there were more T-26's in german use than there were King Tigers.

The T-34 was also captured and put to use in numbers, but I wouldn't know if the numbers are big enough to warrant it's inclusion into german ranks.

I believe at least half of the finnish tank forces consisted of soviet armour captured during the winter war. The tanks would again be almost entirely T-26's. To not include them would cripple finnish force.

Further along the same lines, a lot of finnish AT guns were also captured from soviets during the wars, and there were also substantial numbers of captured armored cars. I have no idea if the germans put their captured guns and cars into use.

Any thoughts about the issue? I saw the previous threads die quite quickly for some reason.

[Olle Petersson]

At least it shouldn't be too difficult to implement programming wise. Just copy the modelled vehicle into a suitable slot for the other side.

Then comes the question about the textures.

In CMBO all nations use the same truck, but with different textures.

Repeating this for all "captured" vehicles might be too much effort.

Could suffice to alter the turret or upper hull texture with new identification marks.

Another alternative is to do it the same way as winter textures are handled; put a nationality specific number before the name of each texture, and the game engine will use these if available.

Cheers

Olle

[This message has been edited by Olle Petersson (edited 03-08-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Olle Petersson (edited 03-08-2001).]

[Jarmo]

The textures shouldn't be too much of a problem.

With trucks it was necessary to do real changes so it wouldn't be obvious the trucks are all the same. With captured tanks you could just slap the national markings on top, or just change the hue of the paintjob a bit.

[Gregory Deych]

Originally posted by Jarmo:

Will CM2 have germans and others using captured soviet equipment? How about the other way around? I saw there's been some discussion about this, but I didn't find anything conclusive.

I don't have any solid numbers, but thousands of soviet tanks (mainly T-26's) were captured by the germans, many were put to use. I don't know how many, but I'd hazard a guess there were enough to make them one of the more numerous german tanks. Certainly there were more T-26's in german use than there were King Tigers.

The T-34 was also captured and put to use in numbers, but I wouldn't know if the numbers are big enough to warrant it's inclusion into german ranks.

I believe at least half of the finnish tank forces consisted of soviet armour captured during the winter war. The tanks would again be almost entirely T-26's. To not include them would cripple finnish force.

Further along the same lines, a lot of finnish AT guns were also captured from soviets during the wars, and there were also substantial numbers of captured armored cars. I have no idea if the germans put their captured guns and cars into use.

Any thoughts about the issue? I saw the previous threads die quite quickly for some reason.

Actually, Germans used very few T-26s, probably a lot less then King Tigers. The few that were used were mostly used for security duties. Biggest problem was that the tank was absolutely insufficiently armored for front line combat even in June 41 (15mm armor) and most were nearing the end of their lifespan with regard to engine life.

The most common tank used by Germans was T-34s. Approximately 300 were used through the whole war.

[Guy w/gun]

What will be funny is when Air support TacAI Snafu's are incorporated into this feature. I rememeber reading that pilots (much like tank crews) sighted enemy tanks based on silloettes. So the Germans painted Oversized Crosses and Swastikas on the T-34's to avoid mishaps.

[This message has been edited by Guy w/gun (edited 03-08-2001).]

[Jarmo]

Originally posted by Gregory Deych:

Actually, Germans used very few T-26s, probably a lot less then King Tigers. The few that were used were mostly used for security duties.

Are you sure about this? I haven't seen any figures of the amount of usage, just that they were captured in thousands and that the T-26's were used by germans. And as the germans used even Hotchkisses, the thought of rejecting T-26's seems odd.

Not that the germans wouldn't have known how to behave in odd manner.

[Gregory Deych]

Originally posted by Jarmo:

Are you sure about this? I haven't seen any figures of the amount of usage, just that they were captured in thousands and that the T-26's were used by germans. And as the germans used even Hotchkisses, the thought of rejecting T-26's seems odd.

Not that the germans wouldn't have known how to behave in odd manner.

I'm fairly sure. I haven't come across any mentions of entire subunits being armed with T-26s, like I had with T-34s. My guess is that they were simply used by whatever unit captured them untill the ammunition or engine gave out, then abandoned.

[Guest machineman]

All Marder II's (at least 766) were produced using captured Soviet 76.2 anti-tank guns.

[Paul Lakowski]

Originally posted by Gregory Deych:

Actually, Germans used very few T-26s, probably a lot less then King Tigers. The few that were used were mostly used for security duties. Biggest problem was that the tank was absolutely insufficiently armored for front line combat even in June 41 (15mm armor) and most were nearing the end of their lifespan with regard to engine life.

The most common tank used by Germans was T-34s. Approximately 300 were used through the whole war.

All due respect , but I don't see how you can make such a statement since OKH never keep any records of captured Russian Tanks, thousands fell into German hands and they even operated a tank factory near Kharkow with 2000 russian workers [ run by Krupp].

Truth is most were wasted away , take ATGuns for example , there may have been as many as 7000 x 76mm guns captured along with millions of rounds of ammo to go with them....in all OKH only used 1200 of which half were mounted on Marder AFVs.

Experiments show that you could even mount a 75mm french gun on a T-26 in a self propelled design....mean while all the German infantry divisions were being bleed to death because they had no armor to counter Russian Tank attacks...go figure!

[Gregory Deych]

Originally posted by Paul Lakowski:

All due respect , but I don't see how you can make such a statement since OKH never keep any records of captured Russian Tanks, thousands fell into German hands and they even operated a tank factory near Kharkow with 2000 russian workers [ run by Krupp].

Truth is most were wasted away , take ATGuns for example , there may have been as many as 7000 x 76mm guns captured along with millions of rounds of ammo to go with them....in all OKH only used 1200 of which half were mounted on Marder AFVs.

Experiments show that you could even mount a 75mm french gun on a T-26 in a self propelled design....mean while all the German infantry divisions were being bleed to death because they had no armor to counter Russian Tank attacks...go figure!

Like I said, it's mostly interpolation.

1) The T-26s are running out of engine life, therefore to keep them running Germans must have engaged in some sort of rebuilding program. I have not heard of such.

2) Most of the tank building facilities were evacuated before Germans got to them. Unlike other German conquests, they are not capturing means to keep their trophys running. Nor are there huge stocks of field spares, because Russians were very short of them. So...to maintain these tanks Germans would have to dedicate some of their own facilities to manufacturing a lot of equipment for them. The only question is, why? T-26 is already obsolete - thin armor, underpowered engine, fairly anemic gun- it's in all ways inferior to tanks Germany has already stopped producing.

Also, by the time Germans got to Kharkov, most of the T26s would be really decrepit.

[Jarmo]

Well if you have a thousand tanks and you use 500 of them for spare parts, you still have 500 tanks and lots of spare parts.

But I don't think even a good theory can be used as proof. It'd be great to have actual figures.

Anyway, if the 300 T-34's used is the right amount, wouldn't even this be worth including? Especially since the modeling will be done anyway.

[Paul Lakowski]

Originally posted by Gregory Deych:

Like I said, it's mostly interpolation.

1) The T-26s are running out of engine life, therefore to keep them running Germans must have engaged in some sort of rebuilding program. I have not heard of such.

2) Most of the tank building facilities were evacuated before Germans got to them. Unlike other German conquests, they are not capturing means to keep their trophys running. Nor are there huge stocks of field spares, because Russians were very short of them. So...to maintain these tanks Germans would have to dedicate some of their own facilities to manufacturing a lot of equipment for them. The only question is, why? T-26 is already obsolete - thin armor, underpowered engine, fairly anemic gun- it's in all ways inferior to tanks Germany has already stopped producing.

Also, by the time Germans got to Kharkov, most of the T26s would be really decrepit.

Your missing the point, If you look at things through the eyes of the Panzers then yes they had better tanks . However if you look at things from the infantry they had none at all so any tank , even a poor one is better than no tank at all.

Most of the divisions that fought on the eastern front were infantry divisions and these captured tanks were often used to tow arty and other gear in the poor road net.

Again since there was no record kept we can't be sure but there's plenty of photo references that suggest this was done.

[Jarmo]

So the question is not quite as simple as I thought.

One more problem I thought of, is the rarity system.

When you don't know how common the captured tanks were,

you can't easily give them the correct rating...

[Guest wwb_99]

You are all forgetting a key point here. One factor had alot more to do with the German infantry's lack of AFVs (or motorized vehicles of any sort): lack of fuel.

Even in 1941, the Germans were critically short of POL in general, not to mention shortages caused by transport difficulties between the rail-heads and the front. There was hardly gas to run the german transport, much less loads of captured russian stuff.

One other major difficulty was training. You can't just toss a rifleman into a tank and expect him to be able to drive or shoot much less maintain the beast. Germany was already short enough on manpower without having to train loads of recruits to operate more tanks than they could supply in the field. Not to mention finding someone to train them. The crew was probably shot or starved to death on the way to the POW camp.

Not to mention the ideological angle, one must remeber that the Russians were 'untermenchen' and could not create good complex machines, at least in Hitler's eyes.

WWB

------------------

Before battle, my digital soldiers turn to me and say,

Ave, Caesar! Morituri te salutamus.

[Herr Oberst]

Untermenschen are one thing.

A working T-34 was another. If you read some of the unit histories (Grossdeutschland, or LSSAH, or DR), it was fairly common practice to take a captured T-34 and use it as food for parts cannibalization for another T-34, or to turnit around and use it until it stopped working/died in battle/etc.

------------------

To the last I grapple with thee; from hell's heart I stab at thee; for hate's sake I spit my last breath at thee...

[Guest Michael emrys]

Originally posted by wwb_99:

You are all forgetting a key point here. One factor had alot more to do with the German infantry's lack of AFVs (or motorized vehicles of any sort): lack of fuel.

Even in 1941, the Germans were critically short of POL in general, not to mention shortages caused by transport difficulties between the rail-heads and the front. There was hardly gas to run the german transport, much less loads of captured russian stuff.

People are always forgetting stuff like this. They come out with statements like, "If only the Germans had had twice as many tanks they could have won the war." I guess they figure that supplies appear like magic wherever the army goes.

When the Germans went into the USSR, they went in way over their logistical head. What the Germans needed more than tanks were trucks. Lots of trucks. Like ten or twenty times as many, and of fewer standardized types so they could keep them running. Lots of tracked prime movers would have been a good idea too.

It wouldn't have hurt them any to have had about two or three times as many rail engineers either to regauge captured track.

Of course, they would have probably still have lost, but at least they might have had a chance.

Michael

[Paul Lakowski]

Originally posted by wwb_99:

You are all forgetting a key point here. One factor had alot more to do with the German infantry's lack of AFVs (or motorized vehicles of any sort): lack of fuel.

Even in 1941, the Germans were critically short of POL in general, not to mention shortages caused by transport difficulties between the rail-heads and the front. There was hardly gas to run the german transport, much less loads of captured russian stuff.

One other major difficulty was training. You can't just toss a rifleman into a tank and expect him to be able to drive or shoot much less maintain the beast. Germany was already short enough on manpower without having to train loads of recruits to operate more tanks than they could supply in the field. Not to mention finding someone to train them. The crew was probably shot or starved to death on the way to the POW camp.

Not to mention the ideological angle, one must remeber that the Russians were 'untermenchen' and could not create good complex machines, at least in Hitler's eyes.

WWB

They could have solved both the fuel shortage and the truck shortage prior to Babarossa by not diverting the men and materials that were bound for the auto industry and oil industry in the first two years of the war in order to maintain staffing levels on infantry divisions they didn't need in the first place. Most of these decisions where Hitler's.

The structure of the supply system was due to the 'cottage industry' nature of the German economy, something that Reich minister Todt tried to change through 1941 only to be blocked by Hitler and his power hungry gaultiers.

What more people don't seem to recognize was that Germany produced 3 times as much steel as Russia and almost as much oil as Russia ...and yet with all this production the Russians produced 3 times as many weapons in all categories [ except trucks]....after there industrial base was shattered and relocated 1500km east into the ural mountains.

If such a 'back ward' people could do that much , then any complaint about how the Germans couldn't produce enough of this or that war material is just making excuses!

What was wrong with Germany was in the structure of there economy that inhibited its conversion to a total war economy....but instead keep the power base in the hands of Hitler's power hungry Nazi Cronies.

[apex]

Truth is most were wasted away , take ATGuns for example , there may have been as many as 7000 x 76mm guns captured along with millions of rounds of ammo to go with them....in all OKH only used 1200 of which half were mounted on Marder AFVs.

That's not quite correct. The thing with these captured weapons was, they didn't show up in any official TOE but in many cases were used by units that captured them or found them left behind, it wasn't uncommon for german units to have a soviet "Beutegeschütz" around for AT defense. In the case of the 7.62 soviet AT gun there was even ammunition production set up, not for the Marders, who were rechambered to take PAK40 cartridges, but for the normal guns.

apex

[PzKpfw 1]

Seen alota talk about the Germans useing captured Soviet equiptment etc, yet i have seen no mention that the Soviet's also used captured German equiptment or 'Trophy' as they liked to refer to it.

Captured tanks used by the Soviet's included PzKpfw III, PzKpfw IV, PzKpfw VI's, along with Stugs etc. The problem most likely would be pinning; down trophy numbers because generaly it was only recorded in unit diaries.

Regards, John Waters

------------------

"We've got the finest tanks in the world. We just love to see the

German Royal Tiger come up on the field".

Lt.Gen. George S. Patton, Jr. February 1945.

[Jarmo]

Originally posted by PzKpfw 1:

Seen alota talk about the Germans useing captured Soviet equiptment etc, yet i have seen no mention that the Soviet's also used captured German equiptment or 'Trophy' as they liked to refer to it.

That was part of my original question.

The problem is, I have no info whatsoever of this, but I doubt this was done in large enough quantities to warrant inclusion. The soviet's were not nearly as hard pressed for tanks as germans.

Some captured german tanks were stripped of their turrets and used as basis for SP guns. But again, I have no idea if this was done to 5 or 500 tanks.

[M Hofbauer]

Jarmo: "I don't have any solid numbers, but thousands of soviet tanks (mainly T-26's) were captured by the germans, many were put to use. I don't know how many, but I'd hazard a guess there were enough to make them one of the more numerous german tanks. Certainly there were more T-26's in german use than there were King Tigers."

The german foreign vehicle designation for the T-26 was Panzer 738®. Official records (strength report from all german fronts) show that per June 1943 among the roughly 800 (I'm not gonna add them all up now) captured enemy tanks in use by the germans there was only ONE T-26, it was used in the sector of Heeresgruppe Mitte.

Compare this to the 50 T-34 (PzKpfw 747®), two KV-1 (PzKpfw 753®)and one KV-2 (PzKpfw 754®), a total of 4 T-70 (PzKpfw 743®), or the awesome number of french tanks (361 Hotchkiss 38 - PzKpfw 735(f) alone)...

P.Lakowski: All due respect , but I don't see how you can make such a statement since OKH never keep any records of captured Russian Tanks

With all due respect, but that is incorrect. Of course all the captured vehicles that became part of the OOB of a given unit shows up in all it's strength, maintenance and status reports.

Concededly some strength reports were understating the actual number of tanks etc. since a unit doesn't want it's tanks taken away and redistributed etc. But things like tanks etc which require a lot of dedicated (unique to the vehicle) logistics like maintenance, crews, and POL you cannot hide in a great number.

In general, it was much easier and common to keep gun pieces and small arms etc. than it was to keep complicated things like tanks which require great amounts of maintenance etc.

[Mattias]

I'll look into Spielbergers book on the use of captured equipment in the Wehrmacht. It's 320 pages dedicated to the subject so there should be an answer or two lying about.

Just one quick note though, the majority of the Soviet armoured vehicles that put into use by the Germansb were "converted" to towing vehicles. The turret of, for example, a T-26 was removed and voila you had a fully tracked tower, badly needed on the lacking Soviet road net.

And another quick one, this one on Soviet use of captured equipment. The SU-76i made use of the chassis of a captured Pz III, upon which was put a simple superstructure and a 76.2 mm S-1 gun. The number produced was around 200 as far as I have seen.

M.

[This message has been edited by Mattias (edited 03-11-2001).]

[Paul Lakowski]

Originally posted by M Hofbauer:

With all due respect, but that is incorrect. Of course all the captured vehicles that became part of the OOB of a given unit shows up in all it's strength, maintenance and status reports.

"French and Italian armored vehicles were included in the OKH lists because these occupied countries provided large numbers of armored vehicles which could bbe maintained from exsisting stocks of spare parts. Furthermore factories within the occupied territiries were manufacturing both components and full vehicles for the German Army."

Armored vehicles captured from other enemies were generally used by the front line units which captured them,and with few exceptions, were not converted or listed officially by the OKH."

"During the four years of war in Russia, a great deal of Russian army equipment fell into German hands . During the early period , most armor vehicles were inferior obsolete designs which were discarded by the advancing German forces.In the defensive battles of the following years , the Russian armored vehicles were generally put to good use by the units which captured them until, inevitably , they broke down and could not be repaired.Photographs clearly show the use to which Russian armor was put when captured by individual units......"

Chamberline & Doyle @ Jentz Encyclopedia of German Tanks of WW-II.

[Jarmo]

Originally posted by M Hofbauer:

The german foreign vehicle designation for the T-26 was Panzer 738®. Official records (strength report from all german fronts) show that per June 1943 among the roughly 800 (I'm not gonna add them all up now) captured enemy tanks in use by the germans there was only ONE T-26, it was used in the sector of Heeresgruppe Mitte.

This shouldn't really be a surprise, but it still was for me. So I did some rechecking. Looks like my first estimate was way overboard.

The only reference I have is the book "Punaiset Panssarit" by a finnish army colonel (don't remember his name, the book is at home and I'm here at work). tss has mentioned the figures presented there are not entirely reliable.

Anyway, T-26 was the most common tank type when the war broke out. At the beginning of the war germans captured a lot of tanks and men, I assume a good amount of T-26's were amongst the captured. Maybe they were dismissed and scrapped.

T-26 type was being phased out (destroyed in battle?) during -42, so it wouldn't be surprising if there were none left in german use by mid-43.

Another "figure" I found, was a mention that there were roughly 200 soviet tanks in german use at any given time throughout the war. I don't know if those converted to pullers were included in this figure.

------------------

Now, would this brilliant plan involve us climbing out of

our trenches and walking slowly towards the enemy sir?

[This message has been edited by Jarmo (edited 03-12-2001).]

[M Hofbauer]

Paul Lakowski,

those figures I gave are from official KTB and strength reports of Generalstab des Heeres and Oberkommando des Heeres, collected by Hahn who preserved them from his work at the Heereswaffenamt.

------------------

"Me tank is still alive me churchill's crew must be laughing there heads off." (GAZ_NZ)