An AAR

[jasoncawley@ameritech.net]

On another thread, von Lucke made a point about different attitudes toward CM by saying it was "another thing" when -

"a German rifle company backed up by a platoon of MkIV's, only to find your opponent has an American Glider company backed up by British Churchills, Wasps, and 3in mortars."

So naturally, I just had to try it. I had two advantages. The small one was I knew the opponent's force before the fight. The big one was it was only the machine. But I gave it attack odds.

The idea was to take as realistic and vanilla a German force as possible, so I chose 105mm for the artillery support. All units on both sides were regulars.

The German force, defending the default village terrain type, was as follows -

1 standard infantry company (rifle 44s)

4 Pz IVH

1 105mm FO

2 TRPs

1 Schreck

- 1000 points

The attacker's had

British -

2 Churchill VII (heavy armor kind)

1 Churchill VIII (same w/ 95mm howitzer)

2 Wasp flame-carriers

1 3" Mortar Fo

U.S. Airborne -

1 Glider Company (comes with 7x60mm mortar, 5xZook, 4x50 cal, 2xMMG, 12x12-man squad, 6 HQs

- 1500 points.

I played the Germans of course, and got a draw, 54-46. It came down to the last turn, and if one German squad of 7 men hadn't been reduced to 2 and broken on the last turn, its contribution to disputing one objective would have given me a tactical victory. (There was an HQ with 2 men left near it as well). The Allies lost 80 men, both Churchill VIIs, and one mortar. The Germans lost 73 men and all four Pz IVs.

I mishandled the German armor pretty badly, not having much prior experience tackling Churchills. And my TRP placement was not very good. I had a decent plan and parts of it worked, others were thrown off by the AI's caution and my poor tank work.

The village was well built up, with two clusters of stone buildings within it, one a church, and numerous 2 level buildings. I decided right away that there was no way my force was adequate to hold inside of it.

Facing south toward the village was a formation of woods behind a stone wall, with one detached small stone building at the western end of it. This made a nice "block" against people coming *out* of the village.

To left and right of this position, at right angles to form an overall "L" shape, were two seperated areas of woods and a couple light houses behind them. I chose to defend this "corner", which contained one of the two main objectives, instead of the whole place.

There was a minor objective in the town itself, near one of the stone building clusters (not the church one, but not too far either - small enough place). Then the 2nd big objective was east of or through the village (from the attacker's perspective), in a body of woods south of my defending corner.

I put a TRP on this second big objective. The main idea was let him into the village, fight him going "shallow" toward the built up corner. When he goes deep to the center objective, the artillery blasts him and the south-face of the "L" stops him from reaching the second objective or killing most of my defenders. Last minute try to get back to the center objective after the artillery lifts.

Two of the tanks where hidden behind wooded clump in the "L". Another was on the far south-east corner behind another clump, with the idea of springing it on him from his right rear when / if he re-oriented north to face my "L".

The last tank was assigned to a forward detail (see below) and was supposed to shoot up infantry and back away through the village. This turned out to be a bad idea, and this tank would have been better off back in the "L".

The company formed a 4th platoon by having 2 platoons give 1 squad each to the company HQ. The company HQ had the west facing part of the L, and another 2-squad platoon had the other face. Each of these got an HMG, set up to fire over wide arcs and to cover the interior of the L. The best platoon commander with 3 squads and a screck, defending the woods with wall corner of the L, farther forward than the other two. The second TRP was put on what looked like the covered approach to this, due west in some scattered trees. The FO was in a house back in the middle of the "L", which could see both TRPs, or call for slow fire between them into the village, south-west.

The last 2-squad platoon was the forward or deception platoon, and was set up in the middle of the village. One squad was in the church, the HQ as on one light building 2nd story that could see down the approach roads, and the other squad was in foxholes in woods just ahead of the minor objective and its cluster of stone buildings. These guys were supposed to ambush with fausts and their small arms, then fall back. Deception about where the defenders were, and delay, in other words.

So much for the plan. In the event, the forward tank was set up behind a barn peeking around it to show angled-front. But a Churchill VII happened to start staring straight at him. He tried to reverse but was KO'ed in the opening minute. So this part was a lousy idea.

I then waited, and sure enough a Churchill VII rumbled into the almost deserted village. And one of the teams in the church got it at 20 yards with a faust. Stupid AI trick mostly - the infantry should have come first. But it made up for my initial bone-head play with the 1st Pz IV, so neither of the commanders was smart enough to not lose tanks unnecessarily - LOL. The ambushers relocated, evacuating the church and moving to the foxhole-woods position slightly farher south.

Everybody is hiding. The paras come next. I am calling for fire on the town center, 4 minutes but they will either be there or be on one of the flank TRPs soon, so whatever happens I'll have some sort of decent mission. As it happens he comes up the middle and to the south, away from the "L". Fine by me. Another Churchill is in support.

And here I misplayed the armor, underestimating the Churchills and not reading the terrain in sufficient detail. I had planned on springing the southern Pz IV after he was already inside the town, from right-rear. But since no one was coming up north, I thought I might have enough "angle" to spring the northwest tank in the L, and this one in the southeast, simultaneously, and bag the 2nd Churchill with a flank shot, one way or the other.

But the tank in the L didn't get LOS as fast as I thought - it had to climb more hill, farther west than I had bargained on, to see over to the south-west corner of the village. The south-east tank got its LOS alright, but the initial flank angle was gone quickly. I had to smoke the 'hill and back behind a house. Then the L tank moved up, but the Churchill had a 95mm buddy not far behind, facing the correct way, and he bagged the L tank before the L tank could hit the forward 'hill.

This then left the SW tank facing forward armor and 2 of the things, crawling around for angles around its house. It ran for a position behind woods, made the first leg, had to move again, and was finally KO'ed by the pair of forward-facing 'hills. So one German tank is left back in the deep part of the L, but without a buddy to play "flank" with. The armor war is basically lost.

The paras meanwhile run into the forward ambush platoon, and come in such numbers that those have to run almost immediately. They drop a number of men firing into the open at close range, and both squads do get clear of the area, but both also break, 4 and 7 men remaining. The HQ gets clear with 2 men left.

All of the following holds the attack in the town long enough for the artillery to come down. A few shells in the area first called, and then a shift to open ground catches 3 squads in the open and scatters them like quail, right after the ambush platoon gets clear. 35 of the 60 rounds expended, I halt the mission, as most of the paras have run to building now. 25 rounds left for the TRP on the center objective later.

So now the whole allied force is moving forward through the town in strength, wasps forward, 'hills behind, infantry everywhere (there are 36 units in a glider company, 16 in my own). My HMGs begin sniping at range at anyone moving between the buildings. I just take them off "hide" and let them pick their targets. The last tank adds ranged harassing fire, crawling around a block of woods in the L in "ring-around-the rosy" fashion to avoid LOS of the 'hills. The renmants of the ambush platoon start to rally. A few men are shifted from the west of the L to the interior, south-facing side.

The whole battle is now on a north-south axis instead of east-west. The allies have the town and the minor objective there, and begin pushing on for the objective. They also pause to blow up the nearer HMG with mortars, 60mm and 3 inch, and MG and tank fire. The barrage gets a few men in the HMGs platoon (3), and the HMG is eventually KOed, but it dies slowly and keeps firing to the last. The other HMG fires, jams after about 40 shots fire, and eventually recovers and joins in again, coming under 60mm mortar fire in response but not being suppressed much, let alone killed.

Meanwhile, the corner of the L sees the schreck crawling behind the stone wall to extra foxholes dug along it with the initial half-squad split trick. From one of these it manages eventually to get a 125 yard broad-side shot at the 2nd 'hill 75mm, rated around 25%, and luckily KOs it with the first shot.

Time is running short. The CO's platoon runs forward to reinforce the corner platoon, so ~55 men or half my company is now fighting from that position. The rallied remains of the ambush platoon are back in the fight, though the southern-most 1/2 squad is isolated, gets broken by the fire of a platoon, and a wasp even flames them once after they broke (reduced to 1 broken man, but survived the battle!)

The barrage is called on the 2nd objective. And the last 'hill is stalked as follows. One squad full strenth with 2 faust runs through several buildings in the town, ending in a stone one facing the flank of the last hill. This area is facing my main "block", and I have some local fire ascendency. Mostly I just keep a building between the squad and the 'hill until the last firing building is reached.

At the same time, another squad (sans faust) charges a building with a depleted MMG in it, and the shcreck heads for the upper story of the same building. If reached, this would give him a down, 80-100 meter shot at the last hill. And the best platoon commander moves up to support these rushers.

It fails, just. The schreck is KOed crossing the wall, almost immediately. The fire it draws does let the squad rush the MMG and kill it. The faust-squad makes it to the last building with just "caution" suppression and 7 men up. But they do not fire a faust. The range is longer than I hoped, about 40 yards. Everybody and his brother soon pile fire on this squad, the 'hill backs away, and soon 2 broken men come running back.

The last of the 3" mortar rounds now fall on the corner of the L. If the men had stayed put, this would have gotten them. As it is, only half are there. The company HQ runs to the rear and so does one squad, to ensure the middle "L" objective are "held" at teh end. Two squads stay and are hurt by the barrage, one broken the other not.

The last platoon on the south side of the L, farther east rather than the corner, races to dispute the center objective as the last rounds of the arty fall on the TRP there. They arrive in time to dispute the objective at the begining of the last turn. 7 men in 1 squad, 2 men in an HQ, and 4 men remaining from the ambush platoon, are in the area as the last turn commences. There are ~50 paras waiting for them in one place or another, but the northern ones have been broken by infantry fire and some of the southern ones are still cowering from the last of the 105s.

It was close. There were enough paras left unbroken, or recovering fast enough, to shoot up the ambush platoon survivors, leaving 2 men in a broken half squad in each of two places. A 2 man HQ team are the only Germans "up" near the objective, and they are not sufficient - the union jack replaces the question mark at the last turn, and draw replaces tactical victory. One minute later timing might have done it.

It was a blast, obviously, and I thank von Lucke for the idea. I am reminded of a comment I read recently, one practioner in a certain field explaining how he learned things. "As soon as I find myself making a test-able assertion, I test it". If the Pz IVs had been better handled, I do not doubt the Germans could have won.

Against humans would be another matter, and I am not disputed von Lucke on the point. A human would have made much better use of the wasps, would have lead with the paras, and the front armor of the Churchills would have counted for more, if they were never risked close to the German infantry's fausts and schreck. It was a formidable enough weapons mix with only the machine giving the orders.

I heartily recommend the trial.

[Terence]

Formidable indeed, and sounds like a lot of fun.

--Permit me to digress briefly--

I had this friend in college named Nick. Nick was one of those guys who was just smart about everything. Genius level IQ, and a math major. Although he got As in history classes too.

Anyhow, one day they put up a poster in the local McDonalds detailing how much fat and calories were in each of their offerings. Nick promptly stole the poster and carried it home where he figured out how he could get the maximum number of calories at every level of expense.

So, if he happened to have 3.50, he knew what to order to get the biggest bang for his buck, grease wise.

So, I was wondering if any of the more mathematically inclined among us had figured out, since firepower in the game is quantified, what the most powerful allied mix and axis mix would be for an unrestricted force type and for all the restricted force types at every point level?

KiwiJoe's post about artillery earlier made me think that if he hasn't done this, well he's pretty darn close.

I can see how doing this would be an interesting intellectual exercise.

But if it were done, I think that in some cases the game would get less interesting cause people who wanted to win would feel strong temptations to pick the mathematically proven strongest force.

And you'd see a lot of those units, whatever they turned out to be. And you'd see a lot fewer of the weaker units, probably.

Sometimes, in the canned scenarios Ive played, making do with what I had has proven to be lots of fun, so I don't think I would like to always (or even mostly) play with the mathematically best force.

[This message has been edited by Terence (edited 03-14-2001).]

[argie]

I did the trial.

Allied: 216 casualties (45 KIA), 39 captured, 7 mortars destroyed, 5 vehicles KO (although a Wasp and a Churchill VII were at the end, the tank immobilized), 17 men OK, Score: 6 (surrender in turn 27)

Axis: 10 casualties (3 KIAs), 1 vehicle KO, men OK , score 94.

I got lucky with the Churchills dying under concentrated 75mm fire.

The Allies punchs against only one of my platoons. They were mauled by 105mm arty and then finished by a second platoon coming for the flank... 1 Platoon and the schreck didn't even move.

You could call me a lucky bastard

Ariel

[jasoncawley@ameritech.net]

Wonderful. So a decent Pz IV driver is all the Germans needed - LOL.

[Guest Andrew Hedges]

It's not really fair to compare this force against the AI b/c humans are much better...although I think that the result in Jason's battle was somewhat realistic because his initial armor mistakes evened things out.

But I mostly think that the unstated premise of von Lucke's post -- that Glider squads plus Churchills and Wasps is an unstoppable force -- is just wrong. That's not at all the force I would pick if I had to assault a village like the one that Jason was defending; I'd be more likely to go for 2 US rifle companies, plus an 81mm mortar (for smoke), plus 2 76mm Shermans, or 3 Hellcats, or 2 Hellcats plus a Jackson).

This might be characterized as an "attritionist" strategy, I suppose, but I think it's a much stronger and more flexible attacking force than a Glider company supported by Churchills, etc.

But the larger point is not that this force is better than the other force; it is that there is no one killer force for all occasions. Glider squads can be very effective, of course, but they are expensive considering that they have 10 man squads. Churchills are fine tanks, although slow, but they, too, are somewhat expensive.

I don't think that there is *one* most effective force for every point level -- that depends on what you want the troops to do, and what the enemy has chosen. Also, while it could probably never be perfect, the points system BTS uses is pretty good. A glider company does have advantages over a line rifle company -- but this is reflected in the point value; a glider company costs about 800 points, and a line rifle company costs about 500 points. I don't think there's really a magic firepower formula. Also, keep in mind that if I bought green troops, I could add even more firepower to my attack. Three rifle companies, plus two Hellcats, all green, while probably not the force I would pick on attack, do have, as they say, a quality all their own.

[Wolfpack]

Originally posted by Terence:

So, I was wondering if any of the more mathematically inclined among us had figured out, since firepower in the game is quantified, what the most powerful allied mix and axis mix would be for an unrestricted force type and for all the restricted force types at every point level?

Geez, the number of variables involved would make this a bit more confusing than your McD's example. For instance, do you get more for your money with a StuH42 or a Hummel? I personally think the StuH42, merely because it's more survivable (Although in a town or village, I love the Hummel for razing buildings), but some people will disagree with me. There really is no single best force for any side, in any situation, it depends too much on the player and how well or poorly, he uses the forces at hand.

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Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball.

[Guest ciks]

Geeez, this is strange...

I tried to replicate this battle, but strange thing happens.

CM QB unit "buyer" doesn't allow me to by regular Glider company, insted when i click on Glider Company (experience level in the upper menu is set to Regular) it gives me Elite one.

Even more, any unit you will try to buy after you bought this mysterios Company, is Elite, no matter what experience level is set.

In the scenario editor unit purchase everything is ok, it's just with QB...

[Michael Dorosh]

HEY HEY HEY - this is not fair! Two of my NSSB opponents slinking in here to pick Jason's brain on how to defeat me? If any of you saw my platoon's attack in the last turn of Jason's campaign, you wouldn't be so worried, Terence and Wolfpack....

Dammit Jason, you never did tell me whether or not I got a decent burial at least. You asked if I was tired of carrying my own radio? The answer is yes...dead tired....

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CANUCK: Clothing, Equipping and Employing the Canadian Soldier in Combat Mission

[Wolfpack]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

HEY HEY HEY - this is not fair! Two of my NSSB opponents slinking in here to pick Jason's brain on how to defeat me? If any of you saw my platoon's attack in the last turn of Jason's campaign, you wouldn't be so worried, Terence and Wolfpack....

Dammit Jason, you never did tell me whether or not I got a decent burial at least. You asked if I was tired of carrying my own radio? The answer is yes...dead tired....

Well Mike, if YOU say MY last campaign scenario, you wouldn't blame me for trying anything to get a little extra help.

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Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball.

[Guest Andrew Hedges]

Ciks: sounds like you have the computer's handicap set to +3; that will turn regular troops into elite troops, although you only see that on the purchase screen. That is, in the game the troops will be identified as "regular," even though they will act like elite troops.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Wolfpack:

Well Mike, if YOU say MY last campaign scenario, you wouldn't blame me for trying anything to get a little extra help.

SPOILER FOR JASON'S CAMPAIGN

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We should compare notes. My assault was replete with stinkiosity. I husbanded my artillery ammunition rather than using it to soften up the defences. I tried a right hand flanking, going around the wire obstacles and skirting the woods on the right hand side. I picked the cavalry option, so the light tanks went in on the right. I left platoon weapons on the far left (mortar and M1919 MMG) to provide a diversion.

I also used my offboard spotter to provide smoke cover for my assault on the right, which dissipated quickly. I managed to get a platoon into the right hand woods, but they didn't have the strength to go through to the objective and got chewed up. My armor got knocked out, as well - the MG Jeep was first to go, followed by a Stuart that managed to make it through the minefields and tried to skirt around the flank to bring the objective house under fire. The remaining Stuart just sat in front of the woods, and then tried to go around to the left, up the middle of the map. A really crappy Pzshk gunner missed and missed him, until I decided I could risk moving past him. tres dumb!

Even using the "other" platoon as the assault force (what the heck, they were all green so there was no advantage to using my own boys) I got ground up pretty good. My only bright spot was a Platoon HQ who charged an enemy MG nest (quite against my orders!) and wiped him out.

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SPOILER ENDS

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CANUCK: Clothing, Equipping and Employing the Canadian Soldier in Combat Mission

[Wolfpack]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

We should compare notes.

I'll send you my AAR to show just how bad it got for me. =)

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Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Wolfpack:

I'll send you my AAR to show just how bad it got for me. =)

Deal, I'll send mine. My showing was so bad I attempted to save face by adopting the point of view of the German force commander and laughing about what a crappy attack it was! LOL!

[Panzer Leader]

Hey guys. I am getting ready to take on the germans this weekend in my assualt. Mike, I am sure I will do at least as poorly as you. Even in the last probe, I lost a tank and one of the jeeps. My men were so shot up afterwards I don't know what I will do now.

Plus, I asked for engineers, but all they gave me were a couple of GREEN artillery spotters. OH geez... This is gonna be bad, I can feel it. Jason said there might be as much as a 7-8 minute delay.

My fingers are crossed, though. I do not want to be relieved of command, so I am going to be as safe and methodical as possible on this one. I hope that my training from pbem'ing the past month will give me the edge to squeak past this one.

[Panzer Leader]

Jason's Campaign

-----------SPOILERS------------

Well here is the final (pathetic) tally:

Allied Losses: 63 casualties, 19 K.I.A.

1 Mortar, 1 jeep

Men OK: 33

Axis Losses: 35 casualties, 7 K.I.A.

3 Guns

Men OK: 49

Axis minor victory 39, 61

Okay, this was a devastating loss, I will not deny it. I went in their

confident that my previous scouting would help me to even the odds, but I

was still nervous that this would be a difficult battle to win. I was

disappointed about getting artillery when I knew I needed men but I was

determined to use my force as best as I could.

I set up with one split squad on the far right of the map. There mission

was to sneak up and engage the enemy I knew was located over there. My goal

with that brave squad was to delay the enemy from bringing what I thought to

be a fair sized group of infantry into my main assault.

The rest of my men were in the tree-line behind the hadge on the far left of

the map, except for one headquarters team whose duty was to slowly

infiltrate up the center of the map. I wanted an LOS on those guns for my

artillery. Thaey were my biggest concern.

Everything went as planned and there was no fire for the first 6 turns. My

headquarters found the guns, but were soon routed by a german squad hiding

in the fields. It was all I needed to plot my artillery and for the next

three turns the 105s bombarded the area with the ((TWO)) guns. They were

eliminated. In the meantime, my 81 was firing on the MG nest in the trees

behind the barbed wire. It was surprisingly easy to take out that mg.

Here is where I made my mistake. I was unaware of the third infantry gun,

so when the MG was taken out I sent a good part of my force up the left hand

of the map, through the barb wire. It gets weird here because right as they

made it through, the third 75 started firing at them and ALMOST A FULL

PLATOON of infantry, including my own headquarters high-tailed it right off

the map edge! I couldn't believe it -- I didn't know it was possible, and I

knew then it was all over for me.

Desperate to make it to the flag before the enemy on the right could

intercept, I unleashed all my remaining artillery on the gun and the

building. Both were soon destroyed and I mademy final charge.

On turn 31 my men were turned back after two squads made it to the flag,

turning it gray. I was pushed back by a pineer team with 5 men, a two man

crew, and a headquarters with 1 man left. For the last 4 turns my men

retreated uncontrollably after coming within a hands reach of the rubble

that was once the victory location.

It was a sad day, but it had started out so hopefully. Man, I was by the

book! Slow, methodical, directing all my actions dependant on where my

artillery was firing. I held off that entire platoon on the right with my

two teams for the whole battle! And they only suffered 4 casualties! It

was beautiful, but the best was watching those first two guns get blasted.

At around turn 25 victory was at 50%, but when the 3rd gun opened up and my

platoon took off, it went down hill.

There you have it...

[Michael Dorosh]

Don't sweat it man. Sometimes you et the bar, sometimes, the bar ets you... Better showing than mine. Interesting approach, though - you attacked from the opposite map edge. Quite interesting about your runaway platoon, too! LOL!

[SenorBeef]

Edit -- Nevermind, I'll just ask jason to send them to me.

Hey - anyone involved in Jason's campaign: I'm going to make a functional (nothing pretty) web page that includes the AARs, lessons learned, and perhaps I'll do some statistics too. So, please, send me your AARs at senorbeef@yahoo.com, and include your name and which mission it was. (Mission number, and file name is preferable).. At least send the 'assault' AAR, but I'd like to correlate the data from the start of the campaign.

[This message has been edited by SenorBeef (edited 03-21-2001).]

[Aacooper]

Rather than being gamey, Jason's original forces sounds like when the U.S. 17th Airborne Divison rode on British Churchills (forget which brigade) to exploit after the crossing of the Rhine. I don't know if they go into any serious firefights, but an organized German company could´t be out of the realm of possibility.