David Stone Posted August 12, 2000 Share Posted August 12, 2000 Okay any grognards, Trying to tweak my ongoing Arnhem bridge scenario. A couple of sources state that "two Tiger tanks" made their way into Frost's perimeter from the bridge's south end. Question: Does anyone know if they were Tiger I's or II's? Everything in my reading leads me to think they were Tiger I's; because II's are mentioned specifically in my sources as arriving later via trains. Insight please.... Stoner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PzKpfw 1 Posted August 12, 2000 Share Posted August 12, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by David Stone: Trying to tweak my ongoing Arnhem bridge scenario. A couple of sources state that "two Tiger tanks" made their way into Frost's perimeter from the bridge's south end. Question: Does anyone know if they were Tiger I's or II's? Everything in my reading leads me to think they were Tiger I's; because II's are mentioned specifically in my sources as arriving later via trains. Insight please.... Stoner<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Well 1 source states '4 PzKpfw VI's broke through, from North to south'.but gives no Abt or vehichle identification. The only Tiger Abt I can confirm in the Arnhem sector was equipped with Tiger II's butr arrived at a later date then above. s.H.Pz.Abt 506. 506 had refiited with 45 Tiger II's at Ohrdruf from 20.08.44 - 12.09.44. after returning from the Eastren Front. s.H.Pz.Abt 506 entrained at Koln & Wesel for transport to the Arnehiem sector on 20.09.44 and arrived on 22.09.44 - 24.09.44. s.H.Pz.Abt 506 was attached to the 1st Fallschirm Panzer Armee. 3rd Company (15 Tiger II's) was attached to the 9th SS Pz.Div's Kampfgruppe Spindler, south east of Oosterbeek. The other 2 Co's with 30 Tiger II's were attached to the 10th SS Pz.Div at Elst. Regards, John Waters ------- "Go for the eyes Boo, go for the eyes!!" [This message has been edited by PzKpfw 1 (edited 08-12-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PzKpfw 1 Posted August 12, 2000 Share Posted August 12, 2000 Doh hit wrong button . Sorry for Dbl post. Well 1 source states '4 PzKpfw VI's broke through, from North to south'.but gives no Abt or vehichle identification. The only Tiger Abt I can confirm in the Arnhem sector with a quick look was equipped with Tiger II's but arrived at a later date then above action. s.H.Pz.Abt 506. 506 had refiited with 45 Tiger II's at Ohrdruf from 20.08.44 - 12.09.44. after returning from the Eastren Front. s.H.Pz.Abt 506 entrained at Koln & Wesel for transport to the Arnhem sector on 20.09.44 and arrived on 22.09.44 - 24.09.44. s.H.Pz.Abt 506 was attached to the 1st Fallschirm Panzer Armee. 3rd Company (15 Tiger II's) was attached to the 9th SS Pz.Div's Kampfgruppe Spindler, south east of Oosterbeek. The other 2 Co's with 30 Tiger II's were attached to the 10th SS Pz.Div at Elst. Regards, John Waters ------- "Go for the eyes Boo, go for the eyes!!" [This message has been edited by PzKpfw 1 (edited 08-12-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PzKpfw 1 Posted August 12, 2000 Share Posted August 12, 2000 Ok further research shows that Heavy Panzer Company Hummel with Tiger 1's was deployed vs the Arnhem sector as well. The s.PzKp. Hummel was formed under Oberleutnant(later Hauptmann) Hans Hummel from 2nd Co, s.H.Pz.Abt 504. Hummel who was 2nd Company CO had been wounded in Sicily. The Company entrained from Camp Senne on 18.09.44 and detrained at Bocholt and was attached to the 10th SS Pz.Div,all but 2 Tiger 1's broke down in the 80km road march to Arnhem. The 2 Tigers that arrived were deployed vs the "Rhine bridge" on 19.09.44 & were knocked out by British Para AT fire, both Tigers were recovered and repaired. The rest of s.PzKp.Hummels Tiger 1's arrived in ones and 2's and were deployed in the 10th SS Pz Div sector. Hummel was later KIA and s.PzKp.Hummel was absorbed by s.H.Pz.Abt 506 as a 4th Co. So due to the date of the deployment vs 506's I'd say the 2 or 4 Tigers used vs Faust were likely Tiger1's from s.PzKp. Hummel. Regards, John Waters ------- "Go for the eyes Boo, go for the eyes!!" [This message has been edited by PzKpfw 1 (edited 08-12-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Devils Posted August 12, 2000 Share Posted August 12, 2000 My source only mentions Tiger IIs in thr Osterbeek area, not in the town. I hope that your german reinforcements include self-propelled guns, pioneers, and flak guns as these were all used in the city against the paras. PS. I would love to play it when its finished! [This message has been edited by Red Devils (edited 08-12-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Bailey Posted August 12, 2000 Share Posted August 12, 2000 David, My source confirms John Waters' sources. 506.s.Pz.Abt is not a factor directly around Arnheim; all those Tiger II were deployed elsewhere in sector. "Hummel" s.Pz.Kp. did operate against Arnheim bridge with Tiger I. The number that I have is two operating directly against the bridge at one time. So any scenario you make should have maximum of 2 Tiger I's in it - any more I's or II's would not be historical. Both Tiger's would be Heer (not Waffen SS) - and probably Vets Experience level. Source of this is the Unit Histories of the 9.SS-Pz and 10.SS-Pz Divn. at the National Archives. -James. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Echo Posted August 13, 2000 Share Posted August 13, 2000 Dont forget the 8+ Pumas/Armored cars that rushed across the bridge from the south. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patboivin Posted August 13, 2000 Share Posted August 13, 2000 David, Did you redraw the Arnhem map? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Echo Posted August 13, 2000 Share Posted August 13, 2000 I have. Im 75% complete. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noba Posted August 13, 2000 Share Posted August 13, 2000 Would they be Tiger 1's with 100mm front armour ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Stone Posted August 13, 2000 Author Share Posted August 13, 2000 Thanks Guys, I have taken numerous different approaches to the scenario. Operations didn't work right so I set up a long 'battle' scenario (60-75 turns). It continues to be a work in progress. I decided to set the scenario for Sept 20th, Wednesday. Frost at the bridge being depleted and "Hanging On." The accuracy of the actions on that day have to be balanced with making a good CM scenario though: ammo loads, whether to include alot of rubble, how to get the AI (german and brit) to respond etc etc etc... The map's detail, and getting the right feel, is what I have tweaked the most. The map is brand new; all my own from pictures, aerials and basically two books. Hey Echo, good hear your comments. I am not adressing destroyed vehicles/buildings from previous days... I would like to get her "ready for prime time" and eventually have it playtested with comments from all... Time to tweak... Stoner Jump in and we can compare notes on Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flipper Posted August 13, 2000 Share Posted August 13, 2000 well according to cornellius's ryan's book no one broke through frost's postion till he was virtually wiped out an there was a reference of a tiger tank hammering away at captain eric mackay's postion in the schoolhouse they even got a picture knockedout/thrown tread of one but....not sure if that was the near the schoolhouse any way it was a tiger II Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted August 13, 2000 Share Posted August 13, 2000 David, the following link may be of interest: www.geocities.com/Baja/1654/arnhem.html It's Bill Murphy's site on German AFV markings but has some interesting notes on equipment at Arnhem - including Hummel's Tiger I's. Also there was Bruce Rolston's notes for his 'Realpara' CC2 ABTF mod. Don't have a link but I can e-mail if interested. Mike [This message has been edited by MikeO (edited 08-13-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Durruti Posted August 13, 2000 Share Posted August 13, 2000 Sorry, Echo, no Pumas at Arnhem. Only 101 were built and only half served in NW Europe - in Panzer Lehr and 2nd Panzer. Graebner's SS recce unit that tried to cross the bridge seems to have mainly had half-tracks, including some SP 75mm and 37mm versions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Echo Posted August 14, 2000 Share Posted August 14, 2000 Durruti, Your correct on the recce units. I also have a picture of a HT250/9 burning on the bridge, and in Mackays own words, "I watched helplessly as 3 more armored cars sped past us and took off up the avenue.". I'm thinking maybe they were 234/3s. Or maybe Mackay reference to armored cars is his generalized description of any HT/troop carrying armor? There were 22 armored vehicles total in the attack, 12 of which were knocked out. This is day one of the campaign I'm hashing out. [This message has been edited by Echo (edited 08-14-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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