Ski Posted August 22, 2000 Share Posted August 22, 2000 Ok, I was playing a QB this morning. During set up I put a MG on the top floor of a building and set it to Hide. As soon as the playback of the first round started every enemy troop locked on and started firing at the “hiding” MG. IMHO if you are hiding on the top floor of a building you should pretty much be unobservable to anyone until you start shooting, and even then you should be really hard to spot. One of the whole points of using a building as cover is that you can shoot at an advancing enemy without having to worry as much that they will be able to see you and return effective fire. Of course, if there are twelve guys firing rifles, you can see the muzzle flashes. But, it seems that it is too easy to spot enemies hiding or shooting. I don’t always buy “if you can see them, they can see you”. If you are hiding in a building (not shooting, just hiding) nobody should be able to see you until you begin shooting, even though you can see the two platoons running across the open field. It’s the same thing with troops who are engaged with the enemy. They are firing at one spot, trying to kill/suppress a rifle squad, and then they do a complete 180 and begin shooting at the two artillery spotters who just happen to move within view. I’m not saying that they couldn’t see the arty spotters; I just think that if they were already engaged with an enemy who is also shooting back, they wouldn’t be looking around for a better target to engage. They would be too busy trying to kill the guys who are trying to kill them to be looking for targets of opportunity. Any enlightenment on this subject would be greatly appreciated. ------------------ To conquer others is to have power, To conquer yourself is to have strength. -Lao Tzu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olle Petersson Posted August 22, 2000 Share Posted August 22, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ski: During set up I put a MG on the top floor of a building and set it to Hide. As soon as the playback of the first round started every enemy troop locked on and started firing at the “hiding” MG..<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I've used the same tactics several times, and my MGs have never been spotted. Perhaps it is because I make sure all of the white cube is inside the walls when positioning the troops. (It's visually disturbing for me to have half of the unit hanging in thin air outside the building.) <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>IMHO if you are hiding ... you should pretty much be unobservable to anyone until you start shooting, and even then you should be really hard to spot..<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> {Real Life} The latter is true if firing from a bit inside the building. The best way to keep hidden in a building is to shoot through a window from a position two or three metres in. This usually implies climbing on tables and such to get a good angle (at the expense of a narrow field of fire). If hanging out of the opening then you will be spotted. In CM I've never tried placing the MGs deep inside the buildings, perhaps I should... <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>It’s the same thing with troops who are engaged with the enemy. ... then they do a complete 180 and begin shooting at the two artillery spotters who just happen to move within view. ... I just think that if they were already engaged with an enemy who is also shooting back, they wouldn’t be looking around for a better target to engage.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Here I agree. As it is it doesn't concur with the basic simulation of self preservation. (As the 200-yard general I like it though, when my troops kill 'em pesky spotters presto. ) Cheers Olle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Silesian-jaeger Posted August 22, 2000 Share Posted August 22, 2000 Maybe they were just shooting at a hamster that happened to be near your troops!? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holdit Posted August 22, 2000 Share Posted August 22, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Olle Petersson: (It's visually disturbing for me to have half of the unit hanging in thin air outside the building.) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Not half as disturbing as it must be for the unit... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AR Posted August 22, 2000 Share Posted August 22, 2000 I also believe that it is too easy to spot enemy troops in general. For example yesterday a buttoned Sherman spotted (and killed) a schreck that was crawling deep in the woods from 200m. The schreck was not even close to the edge of the woods. The Sherman can not have heard my crawling schreck so I guess my guys were wearing orange camouflage. Ski - I also think you are right about the "spotting-new-targets-when-enemy-is-trying-to-kill-u-issue". I dont find it particularly realistic. First you get rid of the guys firing at you right now, then you try to kill they guys that might kill you later. That is my 2 cents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Aitken Posted August 22, 2000 Share Posted August 22, 2000 People, people, people. The subject of ease of spotting has been discussed from top to bottom over and over and over again. The best way to sum up, is to say that there are a myriad of factors which gauge whether a unit is spotted or not. It is never, ever as simple as it seems. The system has been subject to intense scrutiny throughout the game's development, and I can assure you that it all makes sense. Ski, if you have a unit hiding in a building, there is very little chance that it'll be spotted, so there is probably something you've overlooked. First thing would be to check that Fog Of War is switched on (you get this option when you're starting a game). If you want more detailed information, use the search function. People keep complaining that it's too difficult, but you'll get the right answers if you ask the right questions. The more words you put in, the more specific the records you'll get back, so just think carefully about which words refer specifically to this subject. Sorry to sound patronising, but some people don't seem to understand this. David ------------------ There's a splinter in your eye, and it reads REACT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest *Captain Foobar* Posted August 22, 2000 Share Posted August 22, 2000 Ski, I guarantee that you werent hiding in the center of the building. You were probably at the building edge, which is much more likely to get you spotted. Woods seem to be the best concealment for hiding, while still being in LOS. The BEST advantage of hiding your troops is NOT for firing out of the building at passing troops. It is to hide near the center of the building, where they have to walk in to be able to get at you. I have had one veteran squad, out of command and control kill 33 infantry, as they walked in piecemeal at him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oddball_E8 Posted August 22, 2000 Share Posted August 22, 2000 Here! Here! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spcwrnglr Posted August 22, 2000 Share Posted August 22, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by *Captain Foobar*: Ski, I guarantee that you werent hiding in the center of the building. You were probably at the building edge, which is much more likely to get you spotted<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I think the reason Ski was keeping his men near the edge of the building is so that they could pop up and start shooting at the enemy when needed. Can you spot and shoot the enemy from the center of a building? My first instinct is "no" but I've never really tried it... Anyone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rattus Posted August 22, 2000 Share Posted August 22, 2000 It seems that if you are inside a building but are within a certain distance of the walls your visibility is effectively the same as if you were right by the window. When in middle of building, although LINEOS may be reciprocal between you & the target this does not mean they can see you (or does it - that make sense? ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest *Captain Foobar* Posted August 22, 2000 Share Posted August 22, 2000 No, you can't. I have tried just what he describes, and it is not terribly effective. You do get spotted rather quickly, and I would argue that it is reasonable. If you are hiding near the edge, and you have LOS down to the street the game is telling you that your in plain view. I dont think CM really simulates "hiding behind the window, and peaking out every once in a while", and since the infantry is abstracted, it is easy to see why they dont simulate it that way. All you need to do to accomplish what is being described, as hide in the center, and when the enemy is right where you want them (and spotted by someone else), move to the edge and get em. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Galanti Posted August 22, 2000 Share Posted August 22, 2000 Just a quick question here. I know that infantry and vehicles spot better to their fronts than to their backs, and that tanks can get 'target fixated'. My question is whether firing reduces spotting ability? I'm sure being fired on does, but I would think that firing would also. I'd suspect it does, but I was jsut wondering if someone can confirm that... Ben Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark IV Posted August 22, 2000 Share Posted August 22, 2000 Often you can fire from the center of a building (the little ones, anyway) but with a reduced field of view. You are much less likely to be spotted until you fire. The major problems with hiding in buildings are more related to flames and gravity. As you will learn.... [This message has been edited by Mark IV (edited 08-22-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingfish Posted August 22, 2000 Share Posted August 22, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Ok, I was playing a QB this morning. During set up I put a MG on the top floor of a building and set it to Hide. As soon as the playback of the first round started every enemy troop locked on and started firing at the “hiding” MG<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Sorry if this sounds like a stupid question, but did you have FOW turned off by mistake? ------------------ Wow, I've had the **** hit the fan before, but never like this... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
der Bob Posted August 22, 2000 Share Posted August 22, 2000 Is it possible the enemy was using a great deal of "area fire"? In other words, was the building in a tactically important location, one that if YOU were attacking, you would spray with every bullet you had to suppress likely machine gun positions? I don't know, it's just a thought...probably the only one I'll have today...or this week, for that matter. der Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon Posted August 22, 2000 Share Posted August 22, 2000 Here is another look at this: unlike traditional hexgames, in CM's 3D environment, concealment does not only depend on the terrain of the hex your unit is located in. Lines of sight (and therefore concealment) degrade as they pass through "obstacles". Parking your unit at the very edge of anything (be it buildings, woods, rough...) is reducing the amount of concealment the unit can expect by a lot. It's a tradeoff between being able to spot and getting spotted. In real life terms: when you place a unit very close to a building edge, you are basically telling all 10-12 men of that squad to look out side (results in better LOS but also increases chances of being spotted - don't forget, the enemy only needs to see one of those 12 helmets or binoculars). If you place the unit further back, the LOS of that unit is not as good (it is affected by the terrain it has to cross), but also the chance to be spotted is reduced. Make sense? ------------------ "An hour has 60 minutes, each minute in action has a thousand dangers." - Karl-Heinz Gauch, CO 1st Panzerspähkompanie, 12th SS Panzerdivision Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikester Posted August 22, 2000 Share Posted August 22, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by AR: I also believe that it is too easy to spot enemy troops in general. For example yesterday a buttoned Sherman spotted (and killed) a schreck that was crawling deep in the woods from 200m. The schreck was not even close to the edge of the woods. The Sherman can not have heard my crawling schreck so I guess my guys were wearing orange camouflage. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> AR, What were the exact conditions of this sighting of your team in the woods? Were they sparse woods, woods, tall pines, etc.? For one thing, if it is a winter time setting and there are no leaves on the trees (sparse woods/woods) your units can be spotted quite easily way into the woods from the edge. Next, did you have full FOW on? Reason I ask is that I've recently "accused" my buddy of always running around with his tanks buttoned up. Come to find out last week when I brought this up to him that he in fact tells me that this is not the case. What I think is happening is FOW is showning me that he's buttoning up when the TAC AI takes over, but not that he has actually unbuttoned again unless I really have a good sighting of him. Can anyone "in the know" confirm this. My point is that you may think the tank is buttoned up when in fact it is not. Also, best way to tell if you can be spotted in the woods is to hit L for LOS tool to come up and swing the LOS band out to where you suspect an enemy unit outside the woods might be able to see into them. If you can see out and see that tank then it can sure as heck see in and see you. My guess is that if you'd checked this in the case you mention above you would have found this to be true. Mikester out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grognerd_Fogman Posted August 22, 2000 Share Posted August 22, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mark IV: Often you can fire from the center of a building (the little ones, anyway) but with a reduced field of view. You are much less likely to be spotted until you fire. The major problems with hiding in buildings are more related to flames and gravity. As you will learn.... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I don't have these problems at all. When I have troop-sters on the top floor, I always put a fire extinguisher and trampoline on the bottom floor...sheesh, always overlooked by junior players... ------------------ Thanks for Athskin! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark IV Posted August 22, 2000 Share Posted August 22, 2000 That's what I've been missing! And to think I'd started avoiding structures for the most part... I'll just buy Das Fireextinguisher for my next adventure. Those damned 'fausts have lit up more light structures (with the backblast) than I care to recall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robo Posted August 22, 2000 Share Posted August 22, 2000 I've never had a problem with hiding infantry on the top level of a building. In fact I always make sure they're as close to a corner as possible. I'd venture to guess that there could be bug when the _initial placement_ location is within the LOS of the enemy since very rarely does this happen. Maybe some tests could be conducted... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rattus Posted August 22, 2000 Share Posted August 22, 2000 Forget the trampoline - try new "sprengbooten", safe portable and you can use it the privacy of your own home... (or anyone else's you need to leave in a hurry! Do flamethrowers always set fire to buildings (they always seem to in the games I have played but maybe I'm just (un!)lucky? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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