Linked or subsequent "operations"

[Guest Ol' Blood & Guts]

Whoops, title should read "Linked or Sequential Operations""

OK, we all know there isn't the so-called "campaign" where we take troops and forces from one "scenario" to another.

My question is this....Are there, or will there be (by third-party) multiple "operations" that follow each other directly.

For example, since the largest battlefield is in the neighborhood of 5000m x 2500m, how would we make the entire Market Garden Operation. So in order to duplicate the ENTIRE span of Market Garden, we would need to design several sequential operations. Since the length of the Market Garden operational area was, IIRC about 30 miles or so, then we would need several "operations" to encompass the entire field of play, so to speak.

As following in the movie, "A Bridge Too Far" and also Three-Sixty's V4Victory title, "Operation Market Garden", one scenario or operation could be the initial contact where XXX Corps encountered the hidden German armor and AT-guns in the forest, while the 82nd Airborne lands and takes the Grave Bridges up on ahead.

The next operation might be where the 101st Airborne assualts the Bridge at Nihjmegan while XXX Corps and the 82nd come up from the South as reinforcements.

Then of course, for all you Commonwealth and Polish lovers out there, YES I mean you Gen. Sosabowski , the British 1st Airborne and the Polish group, (sorry, don't recall the division) try to take Arnhem itself.

Also, a series of Ardennes Offensive operations(I like to refer to it as that, since the Battle of the Bulge only really represented what "shape" the operation ended up as.) would be very cool.

I'm sure Wild Bill has probably already designed some of these. But I'd just like to make some mention of it, since I've been thinking about this since about the time I learned of the "limited" Operation size of 5000m x 2500m.

------------------

"I am not interested in the names of your fathers...nor of your family's lineage. What I am interested in...is your breaking point!"--Gen. Chang

[This message has been edited by Ol' Blood & Guts (edited 04-10-2000).]

[All American]

I don't mean to nitpick but a lot of what you said about Operation Market Garden is wrong. I'm pretty sure the distance from the initial attack by XXX Corps and Arnhem was a little longer then 60 miles. Also, after XXX Corps initial assault is Eindhoven, Son, Veghel, and then Grave bridge (I probably missed a few towns in that line up). Also, the 82nd Airborne assaulted the Nimeghan bridge and their reinforcements were units from XXX Corps (2nd Irish Armoured Guards maybe?). Also, the polish troops fought around Driel, not Arnhem since they were dropped at Driel instead. They did try to cross the rive to reinforce the Brits, but I think maybe only 50 made it before the Germans shot up their little rubber boats.

All American

[Guest JonS]

OBJ, since you have coveted "member" status, and unrivalled knowledge of the CM game system, you will no doubt be aware that the game is being shipped with a scenario/operation editor.

With this tool at your disposal YOU will be able to do exactly what you have just descibed, with as much detail and accuracy as you feel suitable.

Regards

JonS

(wahoo - 300 posts )

------------------

Ubique

[This message has been edited by JonS (edited 04-10-2000).]

[Wild Bill Wilder]

Anything is possible, old B&G. I would think that is a great idea. For example A series of Operations, say on the para drops at Normandy, or your suggestions about Market Garden (there are probably a dozen or more scenarios that are candidates for inclusion on the CD dealing with Market Garden, including at least one operation).

A scenario designer, or a team of them, could readily take this on as a project and if done properly would provide many hours of good combative fun.

You got my vote on this one. I really like the idea.

What about an Add-on CD called "The Battle of the Bulge?"

Fighting at Clervaux, Bastogne, St Vith and the surrounding area, etc., covering all of the Bulge in a series of operations or single scenarios or a combination of them. Scenarios for small battles, operations for more extended fights (Like the three day battle at Noville)

Great idea, B&G. Keep 'em comin!...

------------------

Wild Bill

Wild Bill's Raiders

Director of Scenario Design,

The Gamers Net

billw@thegamers.net

http://wbr.thegamers.net

[Darwin]

something just hit me

we could have dungeon masters, er I mean, um, game masters who through scenario design and editing lead us through through WWII adventures

[Guest mch]

One thing to consider...

Certain Operations,like MG,were HUGE!!!

I think CM has a scale that is too small

to cover such things in a fun way(not to

be taken for a slam against CM,Bn level

is tops in my book )I think it would be better to build operations based in some

of the smaller fights in the Campaign.in

the case of MG,take,...say the Traffic

Circle fight in Nijmegen.or BoB take..say

the Baraque de Fraiture crossroads(you can find aerial photos of it in alot of books)

Hey,and from there,just build ALL of the

small fights until you have the whole thing!

(you can take that seriously if you want to.)

I'm personally looking forward to scenario

design.(darned vehicle lists!I wanna start working now!)

Wonder how HistAccuracy and fun play will mix

though.(keeping fingers crossed)

------------------

It is no disgrace to be defeated...It is a disgrace to be surprised.

-attr.to Fredrick the Great-

[Darwin]

You guys are aware of the campaign club for CM right?

[Danno]

Campaign club? Is this the same as the 'metacampaign' I saw over at TGN? This aspect of CM is very interesting to me, maybe have different 'cyber units' or divisions etc..whatever you wanted to call them with their own webpages to battle each other, post battle stories and screens/movies and places to post all those newly designed scenarios! That would be like icing on the already rich and tasty cake of CM.

[Guest PeterNZ]

Hehe..

and won't operations/campaigns interspersed with video be a wonderful experience?

I also hope that people try and run smaller 'meta-campaigns' of 10 to 20 people, like the huge CMMC, but on a smaller, quicker scale

PeterNZ

------------------

.C O M B A T. .V I S I O N.

* Film From The Front *

http://combatvision.panzershark.com/

[Lee]

Yeah, maybe you could do 2 allied regiments vs 2 german ones,

something on that scale. Sounds like fun.

[s bakker]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>

What about an Add-on CD called "The Battle of the Bulge?"

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmmm, as i see it there's gonna be a whole lot of scenario building... We just need a place to hoard all those scenario's and operations together and let someone with a critical eye rate them. Like a 'PlanetCM'.

Looks like another good job for CMHQ ? (They got nothing to do right now anyway ). And maybe if we got a whole slew of top-notch SC/OP's we can convince BTS to slam them on a CD so we can order it at Battlefront.com.

NEW! Combat Mission: Operations Headquarters ;

the official expansion disk for CM:OB, only available at www.Battlefront.com. Featuring historically correct operations designed by experts and reviewed by the respected CMHQ-site.

More sales for BTS !

Grtz S Bakker

PS: And then maybe they can even put extra vehicles on that CD, and extra buildings and and and .... okay i got carried away here.

[Guest rune]

Will defer to Wild Bill on this one. However, I have already been testing and suggesting changes to the scenario designers.

Rune

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by s bakker:

What about an Add-on CD called "The Battle of the Bulge?"

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmmm, as i see it there's gonna be a whole lot of scenario building... We just need a place to hoard all those scenario's and operations together and let someone with a critical eye rate them. Like a 'PlanetCM'.

Looks like another good job for CMHQ ? (They got nothing to do right now anyway ). And maybe if we got a whole slew of top-notch SC/OP's we can convince BTS to slam them on a CD so we can order it at Battlefront.com.

NEW! Combat Mission: Operations Headquarters ;

the official expansion disk for CM:OB, only available at www.Battlefront.com. Featuring historically correct operations designed by experts and reviewed by the respected CMHQ-site.

More sales for BTS !

Grtz S Bakker

PS: And then maybe they can even put extra vehicles on that CD, and extra buildings and and and .... okay i got carried away here.

[Guest entec]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ol' Blood & Guts:

For example, since the largest battlefield is in the neighborhood of 5000m x 2500m, how would we make the entire Market Garden Operation. So in order to duplicate the ENTIRE span of Market Garden, we would need to design several sequential operations. Since the length of the Market Garden operational area was, IIRC about 30 miles or so, then we would need several "operations" to encompass the entire field of play, so to speak.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You've got to be joking, do you realize the size of Operation Market Garden compared to the CM scale, (a reinforced battalion.) Just the 1st British Airborne Division had 3 brigades and regiment (plus attached units), each brigade had up to 3 battalions, plus attached units. So for just the Arnhem assault you have 9 reinforces battalions. All in all about 10,000 men, or about 1,000 squads in CM scale.

Lets see Market Garden lasted 9 days, time 24 hours times 9 battalions = 1,944 scenarios. OK you don't need to do every hour, say 2 battles a day, 2*9*9=162, OK lets not do all 9 days, 2*4*9=72, OK the 1st AB had a lot of casualties (75% or more?) so you need fewer scenarios to model them, 2*4*5=40 just for the assault on the Arnhem bridge. Scale this up to the XXX Corp I won't bother you should get the drift.

And don't forget the Public Relation Team that was attached to 1st!

[Guest Ol' Blood & Guts]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by All American:

I don't mean to nitpick but a lot of what you said about Operation Market Garden is wrong. I'm pretty sure the distance from the initial attack by XXX Corps and Arnhem was a little longer then 60 miles. Also, after XXX Corps initial assault is Eindhoven, Son, Veghel, and then Grave bridge (I probably missed a few towns in that line up). Also, the 82nd Airborne assaulted the Nimeghan bridge and their reinforcements were units from XXX Corps (2nd Irish Armoured Guards maybe?). Also, the polish troops fought around Driel, not Arnhem since they were dropped at Driel instead. They did try to cross the rive to reinforce the Brits, but I think maybe only 50 made it before the Germans shot up their little rubber boats.

All American<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, I knew I probably didn't get all my facts straight there, but that wasn't my point. My point was mearly to design a series of operations to cover the MAJOR parts of a Campaign such as Market Garden.

JonS,

Yes I do know about the scenario editor. I may be crazy, but I'm not dumb.

entec,

OK, but what I was getting at was you didn't have to portray EVERY man on the field by EVERY hour per EVERY day of fighting, just the interesting and fun ones.

------------------

"I am not interested in the names of your fathers...nor of your family's lineage. What I am interested in...is your breaking point!"--Gen. Chang

[Compassion]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by entec:

You've got to be joking, do you realize the size of Operation Market Garden compared to the CM scale, (a reinforced battalion.) Just the 1st British Airborne Division had 3 brigades and regiment (plus attached units)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Obviously you were not around in the golden age of board wargaming... Was it Hell's Highway? SPI's compnay (?) based Market Garden game? The map, which when joined togeather was about 9 feet long, was of the ENTIRE battlefield and a campaign could be played at a scale of hours... Never finished a full campaign (tried once and played until the inevitable baby attack on Holland ).

What was the monster game of North Africa that required supply checks that included extra tonnage of water for the Italians for pasta?

So yeah, you could do all of market garden with CM With a sophisitcated enough game mastering system you could even have operations affect other ops (starting positions, starting units, etc.).