Targeting

[Guest Scott Clinton]

> Units will not waste ammo firing at things they can not see, so this has not changed.

I can understand this, but I (and I had assumed the AI) CAN see units are displayed by their 'nationality-symbols' on the map (btw what do you call those 'nationality-symbol' things?)

An example to clarify myself: In Reisberg the Germans set up one of their MG42s in the building by the road and then start firing on turn 2 at my men as the advance....by turn 4 the MG42 is spotted well. All I DON'T know is the number of men in the unit and its quality. On turn 5 I target a Sherman on the MG42. After the first shot the MG42 is pinned (I suspect) and the units 'MG42-symbol' changes to a "German Cross". Now, I assumed that the AI for my Sherman knows that the MG42 is still in the building because of the presence of the "German Cross" exactly where an instant before the MG42 was located (I do). But, when the MG42 changes spotting to the "German Cross" the Sherman stops firing...only to have the MG42 start firing at my men again 5-10 seconds later. This goes on for 2 or 3 turns until the MG42 finally retreats with the Sherman firing only one shell each turn before re-targeting.

> The alternative is to lock a unit into a target until it pops out again.

Not what I had in mind, if the 'national symbol' is still there...keep firing. If the unit completely disappears, sure, stop firing.

> If you want to make sure that a unit keeps pumping fire into a target, use Area Fire.

I tried this and it works as described, but it is a poor substitute IMHO. What if the unit alters its position in the middle of the turn by crawling to the left or right? Suddenly my 'area fire' that was on target is now only scoring near misses (at best). But most worrisome is when the enemy is destroyed on the first shot...and the AFV continues to shell an empty house...or worst of all the enemy unit routes but the AFV never fires at them as they cross the open street because they have orders to shell the (now empty) house.

I sincerely hope this issue can be addressed. Thanks for your quick response.

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The Grumbling Grognard

[This message has been edited by Scott Clinton (edited 04-06-2000).]

[RudeLover]

My understanding of the 'national symbol' icon is that it represents the last known position of a now-unspotted enemy unit. Therefore your tank doesn't know whether or not the MG42 is still there, and in fact it may or may not still be in the same building. I've seen cases where the unit represented by the icon 'suddenly' pops up halfway across the board, having moving a long distance since I last spotted it.

[Black Sabot]

Scott,

The way i understand it, the apperance of the national symbol represents the unit has disapperared from direct LOS and it is marking it's last known position.

I see that alot in LD as the German infantry filters thru the woods. One minute they are atop the German hill in LOS, then they move into the woods (Changing to the German cross, which stays locked in the units last known position), Then they reappear at the bottom of the hill, and the German cross symbol disappears.

I picture the MG team firing thru a window at your troops. When your tank shells the house the MG team ducks out of sight and up pops the German cross. Now you don't know if they beat feet or if they just shifted to another window, so rather than having your tank shell a possible empty house (as you stated you didn't want to do) it shifts to another target. This is just my opinion but i hope it helps

[Black Sabot]

Well look at that,

i try to answer Scott's question and Rudelover beat me to it! How RUDE!!!

[RudeLover]

Well, we junior members have to hustle, you know...

[Guest Scott Clinton]

> ...the 'national symbol' icon is that it

> represents the last known position of a

> now-unspotted enemy unit.

Perhaps, but if this is the case then why is it in just about every scenario I have played I see several of these 'national symbols' pop-up during setup or the first second of the game? I never had any kind of BETTER LOS for the unit to suddenly become "now-unspotted" (did that make sense?)

You can also get these 'national symbols' when you NEVER get LOS. As in the "Infantry Sounds" we have all seen.

I don't think it works this way. Going back to a VERY old article I read (and recently re-read) at cdmag.com BTS explained the various spotting 'states' and the level of information each gave the player. I think the 'national symbol' is just the lowest spotting 'state'.

But, IMHO, the distinction is irrelevant. If the unit is destroyed then NO icon is shown after the AFV fires. If it just changes to the 'national icon' then WE (ie humans) all know that the unit is STILL there...but the unit AI does not seem to realize this.

Re-read my example above and the shortcoming of the unit AI comes to light.

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Please note: The above is solely the opinion of 'The Grumbling Grognard' and reflects no one else's views but his own.

[Moon]

Scott - "area fire" by denifition affects a wider area than firing at a pinpoint target. If a unit crawls to the left or right, it will still affected by area fire. What changes is the suppression-to-kill ratio: area fire rarely kills, but has great suppression capabilities. If you have an MG in a house, you could theoretically target pretty much anywhere within that house to get the same effect - the unit will be suppressed.

Once again - targetting a unit tells the TacAI to aim and kill. Targetting an area means: suppress anything within that area, kills are a nice side effect.

[Guest Scott Clinton]

> "area fire" by denifition affects a wider

> area than firing at a pinpoint target. If a

> unit crawls to the left or right, it will

> still affected by area fire.

No, not to the same extent. Even with 'Area Fire' you must designate a target location around which the fire will be directed (over a wider area granted).

If I target a 'spot' in the NW corner of a stone building where a unit is located, and as the turn begains this same unit moves to the SW corner of the same building, some 20 meters away. The HE shells will now GENERALLY fall some 20 meters FURTHER away than they would have otherwise. I am confident that CM models the reduced effectiveness of the HE shells now NOT landing on top of the squad, but instead falling 20 meters away because of the inability of the AFV's unit AI to target the infantry squad as it crawled away in its reduced spotting state (ie 'National Symbol').

But, IMO, we digress. This is a (bad) side effect of a work around (ie 'Area Fire') because the unit AI will not continue to target a 'National Symbol' that we all know is the infantry squad.

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Please note: The above is solely the opinion of 'The Grumbling Grognard' and reflects no one else's views but his own.

[This message has been edited by Scott Clinton (edited 04-06-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Scott Clinton (edited 04-06-2000).]

[Black Sabot]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Scott Clinton:

But, IMHO, the distinction is irrelevant. If the unit is destroyed then NO icon is shown after the AFV fires. If it just changes to the 'national icon' then WE (ie humans) all know that the unit is STILL there...but the unit AI does not seem to realize this.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But you are assuming that the unit is still there which might not be the case.

Consider that, as the "commander" playing the game, you have access to views and information of the battlefield which isn't availible to any one unit. That "symbol" is the tanks way of saying "i've just lost sight of that MG in that house". He doesn't know whether they are hiding or hauling ass.

Now, you can direct the tank to continue to blast the house just in case, but you might be punching thin air

[Guest Scott Clinton]

Black Sabot:

Read my post posted on @ 2:20 I don't think the spotting conditions are this simple.

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Please note: The above is solely the opinion of 'The Grumbling Grognard' and reflects no one else's views but his own.

[Moon]

Scott - in your example posted at 2:20, what you assume can't be is indeed really the case: some of your units caught a glimpse of an enemy unit (sometimes for a short time so that you as player might even miss it), and then lost it out of sight. In this case, a generic unit marker (cross for Germans, star for US etc.) will be placed on the last known position. The unit might actually have moved away in the meantime, but the marker will stay in the last known position for some time. IIRC it will disappear eventually, especially when you move over to that spot (or get a good LOS at it) and are able to verify that noone is there anymore.

To sum it up: a generic unit marker shows the last known position of a unit (as has been said by previous posters), and not necessarily its current location. Generic unit markers indicate that no LOS can be traced to that particular unit.

[Guest Scott Clinton]

Moon:

> ...some of your units caught a glimpse of

> an enemy unit (sometimes for a short time

> so that you as player might even miss it),

> and then lost it out of sight.

How is it they 'saw' these units during setup? I have gotten these symbols after setup, during the 'orders phase' of turn 1.

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Please note: The above is solely the opinion of 'The Grumbling Grognard' and reflects no one else's views but his own.

[Black Sabot]

Scott,

I have read your post. I too have seen examples of "symbols" popping up where there was no unit spotted, or where you hear sounds. I agree 101% about that being examples of various 'states' of spotting.

But what i gather from your example of the Reisburg scenario is that because you see the "symbol" in the bldg then the German unit must still be there. All i'm saying is that might not be the case (as i'm writing this i also checked the last post on this thread and i see that Moon is saying the same thing).

Let me know if i've misinterpreted your Reisburg example

[Scott C]

Hmm, replying to a person whose name is like mine... seems odd. Anyway, the problem facing BTS is this (AFAIK). The national symbols indicate that there used to be an enemy unit there. In some cases (such as your example) we, the human players, can immediately deduce that the unit is still in fact there, just hugging the floor. In this case, you want the unit to continue targeting. In other cases, you don't know or can assume that the unit has moved on. In this case, the unit should hold its fire or switch targets. Now, the problem here is that while WE can determine whether the unit is still there or not, teaching a computer to do so is very, very, hard. So, since having a unit waste time and ammo shooting at something long gone is generally worse than having it stop shooting at a unit hitting the dirt, the TacAI chooses to stop shooting. My point is, it has to do the same thing pretty much all the time, and so it holds its fire. It may not be ideal, but it's at least programmable.

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Questions, comments, arguments, refutations, criticisms, and/or sea stories?

[Moon]

Scott - this sounds like some sort of Beta demo bug or something. I haven't seen this happen in the full version.

[Guest Big Time Software]

I can say with 102% certainty that the National Symbols represent the last known position. Under no circumstances do they represent a unit currently in LOS. For units in LOS and more or less identified, you will see a figure of some sort. If you saw some odd stuff on Turn 1 or something, that is a bug in the Beta Demo. The behaviour itself is entirely consistant in what we have now.

So getting back to Scott's example of the building... your tank stopped firing because it lost confidence that there was in fact a unit still in that location. It MIGHT still be there (say it managed to hide or something), but so far as you and the TacAI are concerned all bets are off. Again, your units will not do Area Fire on their own. If a unit moves out of LOS then your unit will stop shooting at it. The human designated Area Fire order is an override for this behavior, but since you can only issue orders ever 60 seconds you obviously have to wait until the turn ends to do so.

Steve

[Guest Scott Clinton]

> (Steve) I can say with 102% certainty that

> the National Symbols represent the last

> known position.

Fair enough for me.

One last question regarding the 'national symbols' (you really must come up with a snappier name!).

If an enemy unit IS destroyed, will the game still display a 'national symbol' for a short time? If included this would enhance FOW greatly IMO as to whether the unit was really destroyed or not.

Thanks again guys.

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Please note: The above is solely the opinion of 'The Grumbling Grognard' and reflects no one else's views but his own.

[Black Sabot]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Big Time Software:

I can say with 102% certainty that the National Symbols represent the last known position.

Steve<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Steve,

I am 103% certain your 102% certainty overrides my 101% certainty.

[iggi]

deleted post

[This message has been edited by iggi (edited 04-06-2000).]

[Compassion]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Scott Clinton:

If an enemy unit IS destroyed, will the game still display a 'national symbol' for a short time? If included this would enhance FOW greatly IMO as to whether the unit was really destroyed or not.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's an excellent suggestion in certain circumstances... Obviously a tank brewing up on a clear day on a flat field is a no brainer, but if you put a couple mortar rounds in a dark copse of trees with lots of shrubbery in hopes of hitting that HMG.... And those rounds wipe out the whole crew, you might not be able to see all 5 dead bodies and the shattered MG right away.

[This message has been edited by Compassion (edited 04-06-2000).]